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Date Posted: 14:53:16 05/01/02 Wed
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I

The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)

MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Stephen
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:06

Sometimes in these discussions about the Bible, it seems like a battle between Source A and
source B, not really between the two people posting here, but between their sources or who
they have been reading. A lot of cutting and pasting.

What has happened to You and TB2 at S'htap? I've been lonely in there! Also what has
happened to TB2 in general?

GerryB.
In Response To CTAJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:03

That is strange. I read the entire PP forum for this day a few minutes ago and don't remember
seeing anything posted which suggested "lopping their heads off." However, you might be right.
Yes, I would consider any post which suggests doing violence to someone's person to be "hate
speech." Of course I'm certain that you know that I wasn't suggesting that we should tolerate
"hate speech." I have, on the other hand, been accused of being intolerant for simply suggesting
that the comments of an poster were in error. Actually there are those here who would
contend that the use of the word "wrong" is intolerant.

GerryB.
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:53

That long article that you posted called, "Sola Scriptura" wasn't original with you. It was
written by someone else and you posted it without attribution. I believe that you should indicate
where it came from.

Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:50

Thanx for your answer concerning "sola scriptura"...I was hoping to hear Murray's perspective
as he seem to have such a problem with the way some people come to their Biblical
conclusions. I guess we shant be so lucky...

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori & Ya'll
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:27

I have several reference books that I have found useful. "Oxford Companion to the Bible",
"The Bible in Cross-Cultural Perspective", The Text of the New Testament, It's transmission,
Corruption and Restoration" by Metzger, "Who Wrote the new Testament" and Quaker
Spirituality (Selected Writings) and several online sites for the apocryphal books, "The sayings
of Jesus and Buddha", "One River, Many Wells" by M. Fox and the Jefferson Bible.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:21

Where did you get the info about who put together the scriptures...I'd like to read your source.
Is it online?

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 22:38

Get a good shot of the love of God into you and the sin gets driven out of your life -- you
just start acting right.

That is the truth!

dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:18

The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority--sola scriptura --is nowhere
to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an
understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And,
in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation. Newman called the idea that God would let
fifteen hundred years pass before revealing that the bible was the sole teaching authority for
Christians an "intolerable paradox."

dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:16

Luther's real motive was to get rid of Second Maccabees, which teaches the doctrine of
Purgatory. He also wanted to drop the Letter of James, which he called "an epistle of straw,"
because it flatly contradicts the idea of salvation by "faith alone" apart from good works. He
was restrained by more cautious Reformers. Instead, he mistranslated numerous New
Testament passages, most notoriously Romans 3:28, to buttress his polemical position.

dori
In Response To Sola Scripture
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:06

But, according to Protestants, the Catholic Church was corrupt and idolatrous by the fourth
century and so had lost whatever authority it originally had. On what basis, then, do they
accept the canon of the New Testament? Luther and Calvin were both fuzzy on the subject.
Luther dropped seven books from the Old Testament, the so-called Apocrypha in the
Protestant Bible; his pretext for doing so was that orthodox Jews had done it at the synod of
Jamnia around 100 A. D.; but that synod was explicitly anti-Christian, and so its decisions
about Scripture make an odd benchmark for Christians.

dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:05

Who, then, decided that it was Scripture? The Catholic Church. And it took several centuries
to do so. It was not until the Council of Carthage (397) and a subsequent decree by Pope
Innocent I that Christendom had a fixed New Testament canon. Prior to that date, scores of
spurious gospels and "apostolic" writings were floating around the Mediterranean basin: the
Gospel of Thomas, the "Shepherd" of Hermas, St. Paul's Letter to the Laodiceans, and so
forth. Moreover, some texts later judged to be inspired, such as the Letter to the Hebrews,
were controverted. It was the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, which separated the
wheat from the chaff.

dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:04

Such arguments would have perplexed a first or second century Christian, most of whom
never saw a Bible.

Christ founded a teaching Church. So far as we know, he himself never wrote a word (except
on sand). Nor did he commission the Apostles to write anything. In due course, some Apostles
(and non-Apostles) composed the twenty-seven books which comprise the New Testament.
Most of these documents are ad hoc; they are addressed to specific problems that arose in the
early Church, and none claim to present the whole of Christian revelation. It's doubtful that St.
Paul even suspected that his short letter to Philemon begging pardon for a renegade slave
would some day be read as Holy Scripture.

dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:03

It's not an easy question for Protestants, because, having jettisoned Tradition and the Church,
they have no objective authority for the claims they make for Scripture. There is no list of
canonical books anywhere in the Bible, nor does any book (with the exception of St. John's
Apocalypse) claim to be inspired. So, how does a "Bible Christian" know the Bible is the
Word of God?

If he wants to avoid a train of thought that will lead him into the Catholic Church, he has just
one way of responding: With circular arguments pointing to himself (or Luther or the Jimmy
Swaggart Ministries or some other party not mentioned in the Bible) as an infallible authority
telling him that it is so.

cont.

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 19:36

Hurt feelings don't score debate points.

I hope I don't disappoint you telling you my feelings weren't hurt. :) Feelings having nothing to
do with this.
You were the one that brought up the libertarian creed feed, and I responded. :)

When one reads the bible, it must be done with an open heart, as well as an open mind.

I can honestly say I've gone full circle in this world searching for answers. God's answers and
the bible didn't serve me when I started searching, when I came back to Him, I found
everything I'd been looking for, and the first thing I had to do was face my demons, repent,
and trust Christ in His promise of forgiveness and salvation.

Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 19:28

Or, we could just say that sin is that we do not act as we should because we fail to perceive
God's love for us. Get a good shot of the love of God into you and the sin gets driven out of
your life -- you just start acting right. Works every time. The only people that don't believe this
are the ones who have never experienced it.

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