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Date Posted: 17:17:25 04/30/02 Tue
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I

The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)

MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

dori
In Response To Hi Stephen
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 15:31

You wrote: By Christian standards, I am a sinner, we all are sinners...but I don't adhere to
or recognize the Christian religion as having any more knowledge on this subject than a
pile of dung has.

And you have the right to believe that. Just as I have the right to believe the standards are set by
Christ for gaining entrance to the pearly gates and will continue trying to gain entrance by living
life righteously. When I stumble daily, he forgives me with the hopes I'll do better next time. How
do I know this? Jesus said.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:35

But unless you read the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception.

By this, I mean that it is critical to read the book while giving equal weight to the consideration
that this might merely be the work of men with designs on control and deception. If you read it
with the preconceived notion and acceptance that this is The Word of God, without question, then
you miss a lot of possibilities.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:31

"The bottom line is that we all know what you want to believe is true, and the bible has led
you to believe it thru nuance and double-speak, but no where does it actually say what
you'd like to believe it says to affirm what you want to believe is true. But unless you read
the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception."

The simple and straightforward counter-argument to my debate point would be to show me
chapter and verse of where it says in the bible that what you believe to be true is actually there.
Hurt feelings don't score debate points.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:25

Then you should of applied your own liberterian creed, of minding your own business
when you posted this to me.

There is a time and a place for such posts, and this is the place. I wouldn't approach you out of
the blue with a comment like that if you were a friend or a neighbor. But this is a debate forum.
If you don't want to hear harsh critiques of your views, don't come here. Go to one of those
preachin'-to-the-choir rooms.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Stephen James
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:08

By definition, sin cannot exist. If God is all He's cracked up to be, freewill does not exist, and
Her commands cannot be disobeyed. If God does not exist, there's nothing to set the rules to be
broken.

Either way, Sin is a fiction.

Stephen James
In Response To Forum
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:04

How many people here accept the Christian religions dictates for what is or is not sin?

Masterbation for example...something that millions of children, and adults, partake in numerous
times in life...is it a "sin" just because a bunch of kooks say it is?

Or pre-marital sex...is it a "sin" simply because a religious group deems it immoral to be prurient?

By Christian standards, I am a sinner, we all are sinners...but I don't adhere to or recognize the
Christian religion as having any more knowledge on this subject than a pile of dung has.

Don't fall for the lie, Christian standards for sin are Christian standards for sin...God has Zilch to
do with it.

Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 12:51

Can you please define "Sola Scriptura" for the forum...???

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 12:35

Then you should of applied your own liberterian creed, of minding your own business when you
posted this to me.

"The bottom line is that we all know what you want to believe is true, and the bible has led
you to believe it thru nuance and double-speak, but no where does it actually say what
you'd like to believe it says to affirm what you want to believe is true. But unless you read
the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception." Or your post saying your views
are correct...Hmm?

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 12:20

The world would be a better place if everyone would just follow that simple libertarian creed:

"Mind your own business, and keep your hands to yourself."

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:57

The evil of this world is committed by those who are unwilling to suffer the discomfort of
significant self-examination and fear of exposure of their true selves. It is out of their failure to
put themselves on trial that evil arises. Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive
because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of
the evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within
themselves.

How true those words are.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:35

Ya know, I don't know who wrote that, but it's obviously someone torn with angnst, guilt, and
torment, driven by his emotions. Send him a note and suggest he try being rational, for a change.
You'll be doing him a favor.

`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:26

Tolerance, instead of meaning treating each other civilly despite our differences, becomes
denying those differences, and criticizing your neighbor's worldview is tantamount to hate
speech.

Recognizing differences is one thing, but when those differences inspire calls for "lopping their
heads off," as happened again this morning on the PP forum, that, my friend, is hate speech.

Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 4
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21

How are we to take Christ's admonition to " judge not lest you be judged" and still label someone
as evil? If you see something wrong don't you try to correct it? Was Hitler OK? Was Jim Jones
OK? Were the medical experiments on Jews OK? There is such a thing as an excess of
sympathy, an excess of tolerance, an excess of permissiveness. The fact of the matter is that we
cannot lead decent lives without making judgments; general and moral judgments in particular.
Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging. What he went on to say is that we should
judge ourselves before we judge others, not that we should not judge at all. We are to purify
ourselves before judging others.

This is where 'the evil' fail. It is self-criticism that they avoid.

Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 3
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21

Think of the psychic energy required for the continued maintenance of pretense so characteristic
of 'the evil'! They perhaps direct at least as much energy into their devious rationalizations and
destructive compensations as the healthies do into loving behavior. Why? What possesses them,
drives them? Basically, it is fear. They are terrified that the pretense will break down and they
will be exposed to the world and to themselves. They are continually frightened that they will
come face to face with their own evil. Of all emotions, fear is the most painful. Regardless of
how well they attempt to appear calm and collected in their daily dealings, 'the evil' live their lives
in fear.

Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 2
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21

Evil manifests itself in an obviously strong will, determined to have its own way. In such a person
there is a remarkable power in the manner in which they attempt to control others. Those who
habitually practice evil are masters of disguise; they are not apt to wittingly disclose their true
colors - either to others or to themselves. It is not without reason that the serpent is renowned for
his subtlety. We therefore cannot pass judgment on a person for a single act. Instead judgment
must be made on the basis of a whole pattern of acts as well as their manner and style. We are
accustomed to feel pity and sympathy for those who are ill, but the emotions that 'the evil' invoke
in us are anger and disgust, if not actual hate.

Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 1
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21

The central defect of evil is not sin but the refusal to acknowledge it. The theme of hiding and
covertness overlays the lives of people with this penchant. Evil does not characterize our lives
when we seriously question our own motives, or when we are unconcerned about betraying
ourselves. The evil of this world is committed by those who are unwilling to suffer the discomfort
of significant self-examination and fear of exposure of their true selves. It is out of their failure to
put themselves on trial that evil arises. Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive
because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of the
evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within themselves.

GerryB.
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:14

The difference between the traditional view of tolerance and the politically correct view of
tolerance.

Tolerance, instead of meaning treating each other civilly despite our differences, becomes
denying those differences, and criticizing your neighbor's worldview is tantamount to hate
speech.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:42

"Some people" get attacked with ridicule and insults when expressing their views by
people on here who think THEIR view is the only view.

You certainly can't be referring to Basil, Stephan James, Timbuctoo, or myself, and probably not
to Coinkydink. Well all recognize the fact that there are other views contrary to our own. They
just don't happen to be correct views.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:38

This is my only post to you today, so enjoy.

Don't let your keyboard make promises your mind can't deliver. Your head might explode.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:36

dori
In Response To: No, the bottom line is..
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:33

... we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too
few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad fact.

dori
In Response To Ctaj
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:28

This is my only post to you today, so enjoy. The point I was making is that there is intolerance
here toward everyone--ALL--each of us, believers and non-believers, has come under attack.
That is unfortunate in a room of supposed adults. That is all I meant to say. As far as "some
people" feeling under attack when their views are disagreed with, that is totally off the mark.
"Some people" get attacked with ridicule and insults when expressing their views by people on
here who think THEIR view is the only view. And that goes across both sides, too. I hope that
clears things up for you so you can get back to pontificating. C'ya

`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:20

Question, has anyone done a statistical analysis to see if there is more problem in the
Catholic clergy than in any other or in the general population?

Good question, but I doubt anyone's ability to come up with accurate statistics, since so much of
it goes unreported. Based on the number of women I've known in my life who claim to have
been molested as a child, I'd say it's probably fairly common among the "civilian" population, as
well. That it's probably not significantly any less prevalent (if not more prevalent) among the
clergy speaks loudly against the effectiveness of religion.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:11

... we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too
few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad
fact.

I don't get sad much, but I do get annoyed. What's annoying is when people come to a "debate"
forum and consider reasonable arguments contrary to their own as personal "attacks."

dori
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:25

Good morning back atcha. I was catching up at PP and checking my e-mail. Did you get that
rain they promised?

GerryB.
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:01

Hmmm!!! No one here. OH WELL. Good morning. BBL GLW.

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