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Date Posted: 12:06:03 05/02/02 Thu
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I

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The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)

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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 14:03

The only correct path is no path. So pick any path you please, they are all the same once the lights go out.
dori
In Response To Stephen
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:53

I have a lot of people telling me what path to choose. I have some who tell me God is everywhere and Christians are rigid and judgmental to try to force their way on me. I have Christian friends telling me to stay away from all those universalists who would lead me down the path to destruction. I have other people telling me that to have faith in God is a waste of my intelligence and I shouldn't be left unattended I'm so stupid. What it all boils down to is--it's just between God and me. And God and you can work out YOUR path. 8-)
Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:16

"And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!"
Walk the Path that Murray wishes you to walk and God will Love you and the Gates of Heaven will open wide in acceptance of you.

Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:10

"Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation."
Truth and fact eh? Sorry, but I find I must heap mud and dung on your "truth" and "fact"...Tell the people the real Truth. Your "truth and facts" are nothing but assumptions, speculations and outright lies.

The only thing Jesus did that you can prove was to die, just like every man. Big deal. Sin is still here and I could care less that you live in a fantasy world in which you believe Jesus took care of things, the clear truth is that the BibleGod is a bungler who can't even get rid of the sinners with a flood. IMO

Stephen James
In Response To Coinky/Forum
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:54

In Reagan's 1987 proclamation, he stated, "On our National Day of Prayer, then, we join together as people of many faiths to petition God to show us His mercy and His love, to heal our weariness and uphold our hope, that we might live ever mindful of His justice and thankful for His blessing."
Notice there is no mention of the word "Christian" here, instead we see "many faiths". I found a couple of web sites where Christians are trying to turn it into a "national Christian Day of Prayer". Typical divisionists, seeking to instigate hate where ever they go...

Today I will pray for the Christian religion...I will pray that they feel the Love of God as it is apparent the religion is sorely lacking in that area.

`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:45

He should also hold out the same reward for whomever "proves" Creation.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:36

"prove evolution"...
Scientific theories are not "proven", so that man's false offer is safe. He's in no fear of losing any money.

If he wanted to be useful, he should pay if evolution is disproved. Than that is will be. Too many observed facts can only be explained by Evolution, and any ascending theory will incorporate most of what is in the current Theory of Evolution as a subset, much as Einstein's Special Relativity (E=MC^2) is a consistent subset of the broader General Relativity, or how Newtonian Gravity is a subset of General Relativity.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:34

And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!
And none of this Jesus- came-and-dealt-with-all-sin-once-and-for-all rubbish from you, young man.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:31

Only biblical Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation.
That's what you want to hear, but that doesn't make it Truth.

Murray
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:22

Great! If you pick Him, stay with Him. Show deep reverence for Him. He gave his life for you and He deserves that. And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!
dori
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:16

Yep, he's my pick, too. Have a nice weekend. I'm not going to be online much til Sunday night. Peace!
Murray
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:10

I'll stick with Jesus, thank you. A deep reverence for Him and a very high esteem of the Scriptures has given the world the finest and most admirable people I have ever met or heard about. I have deeply studied other religions and their claims and found them to be nothing. All of them teach a ladder to God, a religion of self effort, and none of them deal squarely and effectively with the sin issue, which is HUGE. Only biblical Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation. So, I'll stick with that and humbly implore your to do likewise.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:03

As far as the nature thing is concerned, I think that is a comment Jeanie made.
And Stephen James. And me. And Thomas Paine. And Thomas Jefferson.

I think your Jesus monopoly is presumptuous. If I were God, I would make my presence known to all men through their consciousness and through their observations and experiences in nature. I certainly wouldn't delegate it to man, or to any group of men. And I certainly wouldn't confine it to one single man-made book.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:53

Thanks! I was asserting that it is not only conceivable that God is sending the Holy Spirit to all tribes, but that He is actually doing it through the Great Commission. The Great Commission, of course, is the fulfillment by the church of Christ's command to spread his Gospel to every tribe and nation on earth. Therefore, through this, it is not only conceivable that the Holy Spirit goes forth to various tribes and groups, but, through the Great Commission, He actually does so through the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus. As far as the nature thing is concerned, I think that is a comment Jeanie made.
dori
In Response To Come on, Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:37

Your comment to Coinky breaks your personal rule of civility:
"All you ever talk about is a mystical vagueness and a fuzzy, sappy universalism, both of which I find sickening."

Is that necessary? I'm the one who picks on her here, darn it!!! But, seriously, although I have a bit of trouble accepting a lot of the fuzzy things she says, I do understand what she is saying and agree with her on many of the points you call "universalism." God IS bigger than Christians make Him.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:29

Go for it. I don't have enough rope.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:23

OK, so do I get a chance to clarify or do you wish to string me up for an apparent contradiction?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:09

Yes, it is conceivable that He would have done that. In fact, He is doing it. It's called the Great Commission. And, yes, Jesus does have a monopoly.
You're contradicting yourself. If God sent the Holy Spirit also in the form of Buddha and Mohammed, then Jesus doesn't have a monopoly. If the Holy Spirit is to be found in the wonders of Nature, then Jesus certainly doesn't.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:50

Yes, it is conceivable that He would have done that. In fact, He is doing it. It's called the Great Commission. And, yes, Jesus does have a monopoly. He is the only Savior. He bore our lives upon Himself on the cross and an exchange was made there so we could have his life. That we could become partakers of the divine nature. That we could have a visceral experience of the love of God. Everything else is just hokey, superficial sentiment or religious jargon and doctrine with no ability to deeply impact and transform a person's life. He made the whole thing so big that we couldn't possibly miss it. Every time the date is written, it is a testimony to Him. It even hit you to the extent you are willing, with a qualifier, to call yourself a Christian.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:26

I don't know what Holy Spirit you are talking about, but the one I know is the one Jesus said the Father would send in His name. (John 14:26)
And I guess it's inconceivable to you that He might have also sent that same Holy Spirit to other tribes of folks in other names, such as Buddha, Mohammed, Hari Krishna, Amen, etc., etc.

Is the objective a love of God and the mankind of his creation? Or is the objective a monopoly on the market?

`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:21

To succeed, you just have to force your Reason to triumph over your Emotion, especially Fear. You have to convince yourself that snakes don't live under water. At least rattelsnakes don't.
Do they??

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink 9:40
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:21

The only sense I draw from your last comment to me is that what you have not entered into yourself you do not see in others. A couple of definitive earmarks of a Christian is a person who manifests deep reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ and a high esteem for the Scriptures. I think George Fox captured the proper view of Scripture when he attested to being in the Spirit that brought them forth and that what the Spirit taught him was in agreement with what was written there. All you ever talk about is a mystical vagueness and a fuzzy, sappy universalism, both of which I find sickening. I don't know what Holy Spirit you are talking about, but the one I know is the one Jesus said the Father would send in His name. (John 14:26)
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:16

Handfishing takes practice. The first several times you feel a fish you have a tendency to jerk your hands back. It's awfully hard to tell the difference under water between the skin of a fish and the skin of a snake.
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:10

I remember sitting as a child on a rock in the center of a running stream... it took my soul out of the cares of the world and I felt god was there with me.
Try "handfishing" sometime. Find a curve in a mountain stream where the water is about 4' deep and the bank is undercut by the water. Fish like to hide in the undercut in the bank. If you wade up slowly and carefully, and move your hands along the banks, sometimes you can catch a trout, if you don't jump when you feel it.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:40

I think one thing that has prevented the church from being what it was intended by Jesus, is that the focus was shifted from one of a mystical experience of God within the soul of the believer, which produces a major change in that person...to learning about God and interacting through an intermediary (a priest or minister), which makes it a performance of the mind, not the soul and prevents the HS from making the change in most cases. Many of those Christians probably still were able to interface directly with the HS and were really changed, but the vast majority of christians, IMO, have just gone through the motions and attended church, took communion and remained basically the same as before.

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