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Date Posted: 07:38:49 05/14/02 Tue
Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 1:13
Ref: "The parable of the prodigal son paints the correct picture. The father neither exercised care over the son while he was in the far country nor did he go out to collect him. Likewise, the heavenly Father gives us the opportunity to live inside the house or out." ~~~ There is no greater authority behind these words than is your's or mine . . . You can take'm to the bank if you care too, personally I see them as more Biblical bunk. :)
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To TB2
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 1:09
Ref: "I possess God" ~~~ Interesting that Brother Lawrence would use this particular phase . . . which literally suggests that Brother Lawrence's understanding was that he had power over God . . .
That's not an uncommon phrase in Catholic spiritual writing. It doesn't mean to "possess" God as having power over Him -- it means that God "lives within him" -- which is consistent with the Bible and Christian doctrine.
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 0:57
Ref: "Sounds good, Al. Really sweet, also. Too bad it's not true." ~~~ Correction . . . Not true in your opinion . . .
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To RonB
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 0:52
Ref: "I possess God" ~~~ Interesting that Brother Lawrence would use this particular phase . . . which literally suggests that Brother Lawrence's understanding was that he had power over God . . . It is obvious that he was a man of great devotion and this usage was an error that slipped by his editor's eye. :)
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To RonB
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 0:51
Ref: "I possess God" ~~~ Interesting that Brother Lawrence would use this particular phase . . . which literally suggests that Brother Lawrence?s understanding was that he had power over God . . . It is obvious that he was a man of great devotion and this usage was an error that slipped by his editor's eye. :)
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TB2
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 0:40
"Souls may be thought of by Man as lost forever or burning in an imagined hell, but in truth I think they never leave the hand of God and are always in His personal care :)
Sounds good, Al. Really sweet, also. Too bad it's not true. A lot of things that aren't true sound good. The parable of the prodigal son paints the correct picture. The father neither exercised care over the son while he was in the far country nor did he go out to collect him. Likewise, the heavenly Father gives us the opportunity to live inside the house or out.
Brother Lawrence
In Response To Blessed Eucharist
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 0:19
"The time of business" said he "does not with me differ from the time of prayer; and in the noise and clutter of my kitchen, while several persons are at the same time calling for different things, I possess God in as great tranquillity as if I were upon my knees at the Blessed Sacrament" --(The Practice of the Presence of God, end of the fourth conversation).
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 23:39
Among the best "worship Services" I've ever attended, No one was there except "GOD AND ME", and NONE of them were in a "Church building".
Where have I said that there is anything wrong with mental prayer? -- it's just not the only way to worship God. Christ founded the Church for a reason.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 23:14
Did, or did Christ not give the Apostles the power to forgive sins?
NO, he "DID NOT"!!
Jesus, to His Apostles: "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." (John 20:23)
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Stephen James
Monday May 13, 2002 at 23:10
And they rarely give the impression that they are upset with someone who obviously will never conform to their way of thought.
I, for one, am not convinced you will never conform to Christian thought. Quite often the strongest Christians have started out as the strongest enemies of Christianity. I think those who are honestly searching for the truth will find it.
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 22:00
Ref: "Like I said, if you cared about me and felt me to be in a such a precarious position and destructive mode, you'd fight a whole lot harder for my soul than by saying vague and insipid little things like this." ~~~ It is my understanding that your soul is in no danger at all . . . Souls may be thought of by Man as lost forever or burning in an imagined hell, but in truth I think they never leave the hand of God and are always in His personal care :) Charles Manson is paying his dues, and perhaps will do so for many lives to come, but in the end God will see to it that his soul is gathered once again to the Loving Light of God that Charlie has now long since forgotten.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 20:48
One more thing...before I have to go fix supper...
I am not vaguely mystical, I am very mystical. Jesus was a mystic, giving forth of the divine secret of life, the knowledge and wisdom given to him by God to impart, sharing the Living Water of God's love to all mankind, Telling us about the Kingdom of God and our part in it... Matt 13:11, Luke 8:10.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 20:37
" I see you as being vaguely mystical and professing a sappy and I would add sloppy universalism." Tsk, Murray, Murray, you just can't seem to get the hang of this "being nice thing" can you? You call me dishonest and a mess and then you expect me to sit still and shut up and listen to you...Why should I want to do that? I think you've just had it with me and if I were you, I'd just give up on me...How about it?
When you learn how to be something other than a judgmental, negative know it all, let me know... and then we can talk. TTFN, Bub!
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 20:16
"Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Interesting tidbit, I have read that the name "Jesus" literally means "God saves us"...
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 20:04
LOL! You have an irritating habit of answering questions with answers that don't really address the question. I would have liked to talk more about it but you weren't around when I was. The topic was rituals and churchgoing versus one on one with Christ. My question was if "rituals" are not acceptable, why did Jesus teach us the ritual of Communion and teach us the Lord's Prayer? Both practices are ritualistic. I agree there are unworthy people going to church and worthy ones not, but that isn't up to us to judge. It IS up to us to follow the practices Jesus taught us, IMO.
[Verified Sim 2] Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Monday May 13, 2002 at 19:39
It's back to the "Salt Mines" tomorrow, fur me.
Maybe during the week I can "find the time" for a couple of "drive by's" anyway.
Don't ya'll run Stephen off, we might have a contest to see who can drink the most poison and handle the most snakes, just for fun of course. LOL
SYL GLW atrdh, JKG.
Murray
In Response To dori
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:34
"...I think you only quoted him because you thought he was acting in opposition to his faith."
I quoted Brother Lawrence because he has the faith exactly right. I do not actually believe him to have been opposing his faith, but explaining it. Better than I have seen anyone else do so. People on both sides want to create this great gulf between Catholics and non-Catholics. It's a false gulf. The gulf is. on one hand, those who practice the presence of God and hear and obey his voice at all times as well as cleaving to him as equally in the marketplace as they do in their religious observances and, on the other hand, those whose lives do not meet that standard.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:31
My son is in Boston...he must have gotten some of your rain too.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
In Response To Jeanie
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:25
Yes, we got about two to two and a half inches depending on where in the state you are. Of course we were short by about 10-12 inches this year so far. What we got will help the surface but it won't do much for the water table.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
In Response To Jeanie
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:22
Good morning.
Yes, I think that is Pac 1 posting at ACNR's forum. He has somehow become convinced that the crowd over there are better Christians than the ones here are. He is just as bitter and hateful as the rest of that slimy bunch.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Oops
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:14
GOOD MORNING! (Dang fat fingers!)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:14
Good monring...sorry I didn't see you there. have you gotten rain yet? Is this the right time of year for it? We don't expect any til maybe the summer storms of June or July (the ones that cause forest fires), if any. It's already up to 90 here yesterday. Gonna be a dog's summer!
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To To whom it may concern
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:11
Re the postings supposedly by Pac1 at ACNR's about me: That wasn't Pac 1. He's someone I know the opinions of and how he feels about me. He tells me when he disagrees with me. (which he does on many occasions BTW) :)
He has personal integrity. If he had anything say about me, he wouldn't do it at ACNR's... he'd e-mail me or would address me at Rel.1 if I were here.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
In Response To All
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 9:11
Well, I guess that no one is here. SIGH!!! I'll check back later. GLW.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 8:54
He has by the cross created an entirely new relation between God and man. Consequently , men are now either accepting or rejecting Christ who has borne their sins. ?He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.? (John 3:18). There is no middle ground. All questions of demerit have been banished. Thus God is righteously free to exercise grace in every case.
Salvation is by grace alone.
The above information is taken from a book which I have in my library called, "Grace
The Glorious Theme" by Lewis Sperry Chafer.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 8:47
RE: God's grace:
First, Grace is not Withheld Because of Demerit.
This fact about grace is more evident, perhaps than any other. It is the sense of demerit more than anything else which impels a soul to cry out for the kindness and benefits of grace. So, also, grace finds its greatest triumph and glory in the sphere of human helplessness. Grace ceases to be grace if God is compelled to withdraw it in the presence of human failure and sin. In fact, grace cannot be exercised where there is the slightest degree of human merit to be recognized. On the other hand the issue of human sin must be disposed of forever. Christ the Lamb of God, having taken away the sin of the world, has by His cross forever disposed of the condemnation of sin. (Continued)
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 8:43
When has the fact I asked someone else a question ever stopped you from answering? Yes, I agreed with Ron's posts yesterday and not yours, but I'd hardly call it sucking up. And when do I ever suck up to you? LOL! We have a kinship in that we are both practicing Catholics and it is only natural I would side with his point of view. I don't really care if you didn't answer my questions to Sim, BTW. I just thought it was a bit revealing that Ron had proven his point rather well. While Brother Lawrence's writings were inspirational and it was nice to note you admired him, I think you only quoted him because you thought he was acting in opposition to his faith. Both Ron and I refuted that with our comments, but you chose only to address Ron's. That's okay. 8-)
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To dori 7:36
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 8:12
Sometimes, for whatever reason, you just have to ask a person the question a different time and in a different way. I did not see you actually posting directly to me at all yesterday. Maybe I missed it. I was away a good part of yesterday. I did, however, address something you said to Sim that had my name in it. I am sorry if you did not like my answer. The only thing that is revealing is that you suck up to Ron when he's around and not me and to me when I'm around and not him. Now what is your question?
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 8:06
"The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians who are in a state of grace, but in the Blessed Sacrament Christ, Body and Blood, physically exists. There is a difference...
There is no difference according to Brother Lawrence as he said,:
""The time of business" said he "does not with me differ from the time of prayer; and in the noise and clutter of my kitchen, while several persons are at the same time calling for different things, I possess God in as great tranquillity as if I were upon my knees at the Blessed Sacrament."
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 7:56
"But, as you can see by Brother Lawrence's own words, "I possess God in as great tranquillity as if I were upon my knees at the Blessed Sacrament," that he had a very high regard for the Blessed Sacrament. It was not a mere "distraction" to him."
He had a high regard for the presence of God which he understood should be experienced equally at all times and in all places that you do not have. You keep focusing on a "different" presence of God in the Sacraments that he did not do. Thus, to him they are equally a part of his spiritual life as washing the pots, but to you they are a distraction because you think to make the presence of God stronger there than at other times and places.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Ron
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 7:36
I find the lack of response to my posts by Murray to be quite revealing. It's a shame Sim had to hit the road in the middle of the discussion, but maybe Gerry will happen by and answer my questions, since Murray didn't want to. That's a pretty good debater's ploy--dodge the questions by mincing words and challenging the opponent to PROOVE it. LOL! I expected better from my buddy Murray. *-)
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 4:10
The sacrament does not impart the presence of God, because, if you are a believer, He is already fully in you and you recognize Him everywhere, sacrament included.
Or so you say. God is everywhere, as He was when Christ walked the earth. Was God's presence the same in the physical body of Christ as it was in the Father and the Holy Spirit? No. The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians who are in a state of grace, but in the Blessed Sacrament Christ, Body and Blood, physically exists. There is a difference. Jesus said that those who would not eat His Body and drink His Blood would not have life in them. These were His words, not mine.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 4:03
This again makes the point I've been making to you, Ron.
Not really. You've claimed that the Sacraments and rituals of the Church are "distractions." And you use Brother Lawrence's words for support in this claim. But, as you can see by Brother Lawrence's own words, "I possess God in as great tranquillity as if I were upon my knees at the Blessed Sacrament," that he had a very high regard for the Blessed Sacrament. It was not a mere "distraction" to him.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Timbuctoo
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 2:18
" Forget the "you" stuff and the truth is left . . . :) "
You forgot to add, "in my opinion." Of course, that should always be understood whenever you say something. Don't know if you have ever been in love, but why don't you try saying to a woman sometime, "In my opinion, I love you." She'll be real impressed, I bet. :) Good night also to you
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 2:13
Murray says "What I actually said was God is present equally everywhere and at all times." and then he says "Just know that the presence of God isn't in there" . . . perhaps some counciling would help . . . :) good nite again :)
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To The Philosophers
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 2:07
Ref: "He is already fully in you and you recognize Him everywhere" ~~~ Forget the "you" stuff and the truth is left . . . :) good nite :)
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To dori
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 2:03
"And Murray is saying there is no other spiritual need than going to God in prayer, if I understand him correctly."
Find where I said anything close to that and I'll by you a cheesecake. *-)
What I actually said was God is present equally everywhere and at all times. If you're a believer, He is fully in you and does not wax and wane according to your participation in church or one of its rites. I am not anti-Catholic at all. Practice it as much as you care to. Just know that the presence of God isn't in there nor does anything that happens there impart the presence of God.
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 1:52
Ref: "Jesus knew what He was talking about and He spoke things that had a purpose and a point to them and He did so with clarity and impact upon the hearer" ~~~ No one really knows whether there was such a man, or that he ever said anything . . . what we do have is only hearsay . . . Staking your soul on the hearsay of man is probably one of those sins you're always talking about :)
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 1:47
"The time of business" said he "does not with me differ from the time of prayer; and in the noise and clutter of my kitchen, while several persons are at the same time calling for different things, I possess God in as great tranquillity as if I were upon my knees at the Blessed Sacrament"
This again makes the point I've been making to you, Ron. You say that I am trying to separate Brother Lawrence from the church, but I am not. You say he would disagree with me about the sacraments. He doesn't. He says there is no difference in God in church and while participating in a sacrament. The sacrament does not impart the presence of God, because, if you are a believer, He is already fully in you and you recognize Him everywhere, sacrament included.
[Verified Timbuctoo] Timbuctoo
In Response To The Philosophers
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 1:28
Ref: "You lack all of these qualities" ~~~ Another correction . . . You lack all of these qualities in Murray's opinion . . .
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Jeanie
Tuesday May 14, 2002 at 1:20
You're still not answering substance with substance. You're either not answering it, taking offense or making vague statements about how spiritual you are. Would you compare yourself to Jesus? Jesus knew what He was talking about and He spoke things that had a purpose and a point to them and He did so with clarity and impact upon the hearer. You lack all of these qualities. Every one of them. I wish it were otherwise; I'd be glad to say so if it was. [next] [post]
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