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Date Posted: 17:26:37 05/13/02 Mon
Stephen James
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 17:45
"Communion is restricted to "only believers"."
Jesus says :17. And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast
out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. they shall take up serpents, and if they
drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they
shall recover.
According to Jesus...you ain't no believer. Oh, I forgot...what Jesus says don't mean beans
when Sim is playing God.
Sim 2
In Response To Dori
Monday May 13, 2002 at 17:37
Why did He perform this ritual with them?
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death
till he come.
Communion is restricted to "only believers".
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to
himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
How many "live like the world" all week then try to "live like Jesus" at Communion??? Do you
see what happens to them??
Communion is to bring the "BODY" together as one, that's why it's restricted to believers, but
it doesn't "remove sin" anymore than "Repenting", only the "death of the sinner", (Jesus, in our
case) pays the "wages of sin".
dori
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 17:03
What does the Last Supper mean to you? Why do you think Jesus told the Apostles they
drink the wine (His blood) and eat the bread (His body) to do so in memory of Him? Why did
He perform this ritual with them?
dori
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:57
No disagreement there, but it isn't addressing what Murray and Ron were debating. Ron isn't
saying the church comes before God as Murray is charging. And Murray is saying there is no
other spiritual need than going to God in prayer, if I understand him correctly. That is too
simplistic. God wants us to worship Him and as Christ, gave us the proper way to do it. It
goes without saying that we must worship him one on one as well.
Sim 2
In Response To Stephen
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:46
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I
speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received
them,
Ac 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
Lu 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that
despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God,
Pretty well describe which "god" you worship, doesn't it???
Sim 2
In Response To Dori
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:34
If church-going is to be disdained and you don't derive anything from it, why do you go? How
do you think God meant for us to keep the Sabbath?
We are to attend Church, but many have put the "rituals" of worshipping above a "daily
personal relationship" with God.
You don't have to be in a Church to worship God, as a matter of fact, If you don't worship
"outside" the Church, you're wasting your time going, which many do.
It's putting on the "robe of righteousness" when they walk in the building, pulling it off when
they walk out, as I said, when they start describing Jesus, you find out who "KNOWS" him
and who don't.
Stephen James
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:17
I guess it is the old approach vs. the new approach. I like the new one better...the old one
leads to the persecution and murder of innocent Human Beings. We all know that that is
Evil...don't we?
Stephen James
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:17
There are Christians in this world who believe their Religion gives them the Right to Condemn
and there are Christians who leave that entirely up to God and make it fairly clear that what
they share is their opinion, take it or leave it.
Sure they make it well known that they believe their opinion to be Absolute Truth, but their
approach is not done in such a way that the listener feels threatened or pushed in any way.
And they rarely give the impression that they are upset with someone who obviously will never
conform to their way of thought. They don't all of a sudden just see the Devil in a good person
merely because of continued rejection of Christianity.
Stephen James
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:12
"I don't think it is his desire "only to negate.".."
In cases where I am dealing with the likes of an ACNE or a Murray...my full intention is to
Negate. I have nothing I wish to share with them except the evil I find in their particular brand
of Christianity.
Murray thinks he is here sharing but he does not bother to ask anyone what they think he is
here trying to do simply because we are lesser beings than he is and our feelings/thoughts are
absolutely worthless to one as exalted as him. We just need to sit down, shut up and listen as
the Oracle teaches us ignorant fools about God.
dori
In Response To Sim
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:08
If church-going is to be disdained and you don't derive anything from it, why do you go? How
do you think God meant for us to keep the Sabbath?
Sim 2
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 16:05
What you fail to realize is that, the Church (Mass, fast days, etc.) is "spiritual life." That the
Sacraments really impart spiritual grace. You have it in your mind that the only kind of spiritual
life that is real, is mental prayer. You have a very limited view of spirituality.
Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:
Or he that loveth, "Church", "Rituals" or "Political party".
Worshipping God isn't is "Ritual ACTS" or "Building", it's in the "SPIRIT" of the person, you
can't please God by physical acts, (in the flesh).
Among the best "worship Services" I've ever attended, No one was there except "GOD AND
ME", and NONE of them were in a "Church building".
Sim 2
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 15:52
Did, or did Christ not give the Apostles the power to forgive sins?
NO, he "DID NOT"!!
Why didn't God allow Jesus to "forgive sin" "WITHOUT HAVING TO DIE"??
Without the shedding of blood, thee is "NO REMISSION OF SIN".
The Catholic's are teaching remission of sin "WITHOUT" THE DEATH OF THE SINNER",
which CONTRADICT THE BIBLE, in it's teaching of why Jesus had to die "IN OUR
PLACE".
You're teaching "JESUS'S DEATH"...ISN'T...NECESSARY for the "REMISSION OF
SIN", if "Anyone" can absolve (forgive) sins.
And you don't "SEE" anything "WRONG" with that???
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 15:48
"If knew what it is to have an honest discussion"
Like a deceiver like you knows anything about honesty. Hah!
The only way to have a truly Honest discussion of God is for everyone to put their little books
away and put away all the pre-conceived notions of long dead men and sit down and speak
from the Heart. I guess that would not work with you though, the "Great Commission" has a
way of turning many Hearts into a black lump of coal. They become so caught up in saving
souls they could care less about trampling on Hearts already filled with a Love for God. You
just see that it is not the God that Murray approves of which kicks in the Holier than Thou stuff
and off a trampling ya go!
RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 15:16
He is there equally at all times and all places.
Again, a matter of opinion. The Old Testament prefigured the New. As God was present in the
Holy of Holies, Christ is present at the altar. He is physically present at the altar. And where, in
the Old Testament, does it say that God was "only" at the Holy of Holies?
Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 15:01
"...and there is definitely a difference between Christ's presence on the altar and
everywhere else. (Just as there was a difference between God's presence at the Holy of
Holies.)
Mixed metaphor at best. The presence of God is the presence of God. In the O.T. times, He
was ONLY present in the Holy of Holies. So, it wasn't that his presence could have been
different there from somewhere else because He wasn't present anywhere else. Today we
have a new convenant whereby the Lord is present with us and in us at all times and all places.
That is if we've asked Him to come in to our heart. If so, He is there equally at all times and all
places.
RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:46
So, you don't believe the grace of God, the love of God and the presence of God are
equally present and available at all times and all places? Is that what you're saying? You
think the grace of God starts to run a quart low if you miss Mass? All I'm saying is that it
should be the same to your everywhere. Do you refute that?
I believe that Jesus commanded us to "eat His Body and drink His Blood." I think that, by
obeying His commandment, we are nourished spiritually and we are given special graces. I
think Christ knew what He was doing when he instituted the Sacraments -- and there is
definitely a difference between Christ's presence on the altar and everywhere else. (Just as
there was a difference between God's presence at the Holy of Holies.)
Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:33
So, you don't believe the grace of God, the love of God and the presence of God are equally
present and available at all times and all places? Is that what you're saying? You think the
grace of God starts to run a quart low if you miss Mass? All I'm saying is that it should be the
same to your everywhere. Do you refute that?
Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:28
"Again you set yourself up as judge."
Not really. Show me where he has posted something in the affirmative just now. It's not
enough to just say you don't agree with me or you don't like what I'm doing. If you take the
trouble to engage me, I believe it is irresponsible to do other than to put forth what you think to
be correct in the alternative. It really comes down to whether you care about what is true and
whether you care about people. If you have these as your passion, you will show it by fighting
for truth and for the good of others. If you do not show me this commitment, I assume you to
be both unprincipled and uncaring.
RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:19
No they aren't. They are, at best, a way of connecting to or hearkening back to the grace
that has already been imparted through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Which, of course, is merely your opinion. I realize you don't believe in Catholicism, but to
lecture me on my own religion, without fully understanding it, is what I find obnoxious about
your messages. You take the "whole message" of Brother Lawrence out of context by
attempting to separate him from the Church. Obviously, as a Catholic, he would disagree with
you about the Sacraments -- otherwise he would not have been a Catholic.
Murray
In Response To Timbuctoo
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:17
"You miss the content only because you are to busy explaining what you do not know. :)"
Like I said, if you cared about me and felt me to be in a such a precarious position and
destructive mode, you'd fight a whole lot harder for my soul than by saying vague and insipid
little things like this. As it is, I can only view what you say as a statement coming from unbelief
and an attempt to distract me from what I am doing in the expression of belief.
Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:11
I must go now ... the garden needs water . . . It is difficult living a life without content :)
Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:06
What you fail to realize is that, the Church (Mass, fast days, etc.) is "spiritual life." That
the Sacraments really impart spiritual grace.
No they aren't. They are, at best, a way of connecting to or hearkening back to the grace that
has already been imparted through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This
grace is the same to you whether you are at Mass or selling a car, if that's what your job is.
That's the whole message of Brother Lawrence. The grace of God, the love of God, the
presence of God is with you equally at all times and all places. I am not a Catholic basher. I am
not against your mass or your church. If you experience Christ there, I am all for it. Better,
though, to experience Him equally when not there.
RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 14:04
It is vain and purposeless in that you do not have a direction of your own and live only
with a passion to negate.
Again you set yourself up as judge. While I disagree with Stephen Jame's conclusions, I don't
think it is his desire "only to negate." He has shown to me in past arguments that he definitely
has a set of beliefs and that has a healthy repugnance to the self-righteousness. I don't think
Christians should fear those who honestly oppose Christianity. They are searching for the truth
and, if they are of good will, God will lead them to it. But you're not going to win them over by
beating them over the head with your version of Christianity.
Timbuctoo
In Response To Murray
Monday May 13, 2002 at 13:55
Ref: "You expose nothing except that your life is without content." ~~~ You miss the content
only because you are to busy explaining what you do not know. :)
Murray
In Response To Stephen James
Monday May 13, 2002 at 13:49
Thank you, you make my last point for me extremely well. Like I said, your life is vacuous. It
is vain and purposeless in that you do not have a direction of your own and live only with a
passion to negate.
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