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Date Posted: 19:43:40 11/29/01 Thu
Author: Trinity
Subject: Re: Okay, how 'bout this then..
In reply to: KhaliG 's message, "Re: The *real* rambling theory.. ; )" on 00:16:12 11/29/01 Thu

>Personally, I think the baby's soul only influenced
>what was already changing in Darla. I think Darla had
>changed in The Trial and that change carried over into
>her death.


I do agree that something definitely did change. I've never quite been able to put my finger on what exactly that was, but.. =)

One example was in "Redefinition," when Darla thought Angel was there, and afterwards when Dru told her she missed him like a heartbeat. *Something* was different in her..

She was not as evil or as brutal as before
>and I think that change scared her witless.


Well.. personally I'd phrase that she was not always as evil.. She still did do some pretty darn tootin' evil things! ; )

So, in
>order to squash these feelings, she acted as black hat
>as ever, trying to overcompensate for the changing
>feelings she had since her second death.


Yeah, I'd believe that.. The exact same could be said of Angelus of S2 BtVS. =) (Though maybe not exact, as he had memories, not really "changing feelings..")

When she got
>pregnant, it is my private belief that Darla *did*
>care about her baby and tried her hardest to not act
>like she did. It led her to doing some really awful
>things (Offspring comes to mind) and it wasn't until
>she was slapped in the face with a picture of her son
>that the walls started crumbling.


I do completely agree with that.. Since I seem to be copying from this e-mail a lot lately *g*.. This was at the very beginning of my "theory" e-mail.. I wrote it before those ideas popped in my head..

~~Anyway, here's another point to ponder.. Consider the order/timing of events. 1. Angel discovers the baby's heartbeat (which automatically equals a soul, ya know..), and Darla rather vehemently denies this possibility. 2. Darla and Angel see the baby on the US screen.. it was after this that Darla and Angel both changed a little (or started to at least). It finally became *real* for the both of them. They were having a child, and there it was.. Angel even says something at one point to Darla about this very fact. 3. Darla goes into "labor," and afterwards is not at all the same (neither is Angel for that matter). A reason pertaining to the baby's soul is given, but also consider that labor will make the baby *Very* *VERY* real to her. I can only speak in terms of having cramps from Hell on occasion, but no amount of denial on the planet can make them go away!! (Though drugs are so blissfully helpful.. *G*) That baby *was* *inside* *her*, doing its damnedest to fight its way out.. She could feel it even more than its picture allowed.~~


It was only after my theory that I realized there just *might* be other explanations, but yes, your explanation was my original one as well. =)




>
>I will always think of that moment when Darla was
>crying in the car in Quickening and started covering
>up her feelings as the moment when the dam broke and
>the pause after she started to say, "Angel..." was
>when she started acting on those feelings. It was only
>in Lullaby that those feelings began to be expressed
>in a very visible fashion. This is why I don't really
>believe in the whole "It was the baby's soul!" as the
>reason for why Darla changed in Lullaby, I think it
>was a combination of the baby's soul and Darla herself
>that caused the changes. However, Lullaby's ambiguous
>enough for either interpretation to be true.


I agree that it was both as well. Darla was a mother. I don't care if she was an evil demon, she was still a mother, carrying her child. =) I'll argue till the cows come home that Darla felt *something* for that baby! ; ) It is canon that vampires can feel love. The soul inside then allowed those feelings to show themselves in a greater capacity. But technically, those feelings would still have to be there in the first place to allow the soul to magnify them.. =)

Am I confusing you yet??? ; )




>
>Prophecies are tricky things. They mean one thing at
>first, but can mean another. Take the Shansu thing. We
>all thought it meant that Angel was going to become
>human in the end. I always thought that was just plain
>boring, but with the baby, that interpretation of
>Shansu needed to be re-examined and by Goerge, if
>we're not getting another view of Shansu. You know,
>I'm loving the baby, he's a canon-buster to be sure ;)
>Maybe they should call him Buster? *g*



LMAO! Buster it is! =) And yeah, I'm loving the possibilities with this baby arc too!!

>>

>
>I think that idea is pretty common in some cultures.
>Life and Death are two sides of the same coin. You
>can't have one without the other. In TSILA, five
>vampires were killed so that Darla could live. In
>Lullabye, Darla killed herself so that her son could
>live.


Yeah I agree, they're the same basic thing in my book as well. Hey, have any of you ever seen "The Seventh Sign" with Demi Moore?? Hope I'm not spoiling anyone, but in the end she gives her soul (therefore life) to her still-born son, thereby stopping the occuring apocalypse. . . Darla.. naaahhhhhhhh. . . . ; )


>
>I'm thinking that Darla's death fulfilled the
>prophecy. She was literally death and she died to save
>her baby's life, yet once she was gone, there was
>life. I think there's a whole Circle of Life thing
>going on in Lullaby.


Yeah, that was my interp as well. Though I do still wonder why it said there will be only death, meaning no life, in the birth.. As soon as the "birth" happened, that baby was *alive*.. *confuddled* ; )


>
>You know what, I'm kind of thinking that the
>invulnerable protection bit is probably Darla's body
>protecting her child. The child was growing inside her
>and since she was immortal, as long as he was inside
>her stomach and she was attacked in non-vampire lethal
>ways, he was pretty much invulnerable to being killed.
>I guess he took on the immortal aspect of him mom
>while in utero.


Hmmmm.. that's a cool possibility.. though, why then was the baby dying at the end??? (And just how the Hell *did* Wes know Buster's *bweg* heart rate had dropped?!?!?)


>
>Like I said below, this demon is up to something. Why
>is he insisting that Holtz show no mercy? if he didn't
>tell Holtz about the kid, is it because the kid is
>important for an upcoming apocalypse? Is the kid
>somehow an affront to what Sahjin believes to be the
>'proper" way of things and he figures that by not
>telling Holtz about the baby, he hopes that Holtz's
>hatred will be enough to kill two birds with one
>stone.


Definitely, definitely and definitely. I'm convinced Holtz is nothing but a pawn and Sahjan has ulterior motives up the wazoo! =) (What the heck is a wazoo anyway?? *g*)


>
>One of the most interesting things about this
>storyline is the fact that Holtz has every right to be
>angry at Angel for the crimes that have been done to
>him, yet, he could easily do things that could make
>him twice as evil in the name of vengeance. It could
>wind up being that the sins of the father are paid by
>the son. There's also the demon that summoned Holtz,
>I'm wondering what's his deal and why is he so angry
>with Angel? Is it Angel or Angelus that Sahjin is
>angry with?


Yeah, that's probably my favorite part about Holtz. (Plus, that *voice*) *Technically* he's a "good guy," as he hunts evil demons. But is he really a good good guy?? How far will he go to exact his revenge?? How personal will he make this fight?? Will he wind up damning himself in his quest?? But even before vengence tainted his fight, he seemed rather ruthless in his tactics. Perhaps he felt he was doing God's work, torturing the demon inside so the person's soul would be free to enter Heaven etc.. He was *happy* that Angel had his soul, claiming it would make his "purification" even better (if memory serves).

I actually read a wonderful fic (written by a friend of mine) the other day in which Angel gives himself up to Holtz at the end of "Lullabye" to save his son and Fred. He's gone for a couple weeks and the FG can't find him. Holtz finally brings him back to the Hyperion (in direct sunlight no less). Holtz explains that he has done his (purification) job and exacted his revenge by finally destroying the demon inside (he says at one point that Holy Water and crosses no longer burn Angel). The problem is there is nothing left of Angel.. Without the demon to animate the corpse, there's nothing but a (horrified, pained and very aware) soul trapped in a quickly dying and decaying corpse.. Here's a great little excerpt..

~~~Holtz glared coolly at Sahjan, "He's purified, it's over."

"It is not over, not till Angelus and the child are dead."

"I am not your assassin, demon," Holtz stated.

"What about your vengeance? Your family? Should he live when you have no reason to? Should his son grow up when your children didn't?"

"The cross no longer burns him. The demon is dead. My quest for vengeance is done. I'm taking him home."~~~

~~~"The demon that murdered my family has finally paid for its sins," Holtz replied. "I am at peace."

"Because of what I did his soul may be judged separately from the demon," Holtz replied.~~~


Oh yeah, I definitely love Holtz!! =)





>
>Interesting theory, but you know what? I couldn't bear
>with that. Why? because this would be another "evil
>baby" storyline like Rosemary's Baby or the evil demon
>kids that Cordy had or even Ryan, the kid from a
>season 1 ep. Granted the scenario is dramatic and
>tragic and we'll all be going "poor Angel!", but
>seriously, I would far prefer it if this kid were
>good, powerful, but good.


Okay.. well.. how 'bout this then.. (another idea that just popped in my head. Can you tell I LOVE hypothesizing?? *g*)


Darla did both evil and.. not so evil *g* things while pregnant. (Entirely a plot device yes, but..) It took Angel till the very end of Offspring to realize the baby had a soul/heartbeat. Why didn't he notice it immediately?? All of Angel's talk about a "half-miracle.." Darla (the mother) is soulless, Angel (the father) has his soul..

So what if the baby has.. ermmm.. "half" a soul?? Like maybe it isn't permanently "attached" and *can* come and go. Sometimes Buster can be evil, sometimes good.. Perhaps there is a strong pull towards both?? It will be Angel's "job" (and who better to do it really?? Hence the reason this baby is his! *g*) to teach him to control his darker side and never give into it.. To fight to keep his soul in his body..

Ooooohh wait.. just thought of something! Nathan Reed (think it was him, not Holland..) told Lindsey that all the prophecies said the vampire with a soul was pivotal in the coming apocalypse. But the grey area is the side for which he fought. W&H's job was to make that area as grey as possible.. What if this actually refers to Buster, and not Angel, according to the thoughts above??!?! Hmmmmm.. I'm gonna have to go and think on this now!! *GGG* Telling you, I love theorizing! =)

For me, there's a sense of
>irony that the two of the worst vamps in the
>Buffy/Angelverse have begotten something really good.


Yup, that'd be about the *definition* of irony! =) And I think I would like that if they handled it properly..

>Who would ever believe that and besides, for me, the
>wonderful thing about babies is that they have he
>potential to be good or evil, what matters is
>(show-wise) is whether Angel loves and accepts this
>kid and treats his son well.


Exactly, and that plays into my new theory above. =)

Again, this is just an
>opinion, not an attack on the idea.
>
>
>~Khali


No, you're perfectly fine. =) Heck, most of the time *I* throw out my ideas as patently ridiculous or stupid anyway! And I always appreciate "feedback" of any kind. =) Now, does my new "theory" sound any better to you (or Ngser =) )?? And feel free to add on or change it as well.

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