Re: Okay, how 'bout this then.. -- The Darla & Angel Discussion Board

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Date Posted: 20:42:03 11/29/01 Thu
Author: KhaliG
Subject: Re: Okay, how 'bout this then..
In reply to: Trinity 's message, "Re: Okay, how 'bout this then.." on 19:43:40 11/29/01 Thu

>>Personally, I think the baby's soul only influenced
>>what was already changing in Darla. I think Darla had
>>changed in The Trial and that change carried over into
>>her death.
>
>
>I do agree that something definitely did
>change. I've never quite been able to put my finger on
>what exactly that was, but.. =)

I've always thought that finding change in darla is like sifting for gold. Most of the time you're going to find dirt, rocks and other debris. Every now and then, you'll find a gold nugget and declare it a miracle.
>
>One example was in "Redefinition," when Darla thought
>Angel was there, and afterwards when Dru told her she
>missed him like a heartbeat. *Something* was different
>in her..

Yep. That's one crucial part of the "change". I would also add her reaction to Angel telling her about "perfect despair" in Epiphany. Darla 1.0 would not have acted so *hurt* over Angel's rejection.
>Well.. personally I'd phrase that she was not
>always as evil.. She still did do some pretty
>darn tootin' evil things! ; )

Oh, I agree.
>
>So, in
>>order to squash these feelings, she acted as black hat
>>as ever, trying to overcompensate for the changing
>>feelings she had since her second death.
>
>
>Yeah, I'd believe that.. The exact same could be said
>of Angelus of S2 BtVS. =) (Though maybe not exact, as
>he had memories, not really "changing feelings..")

Yes, Buffy made Angel feel love or at least accepted for the first time since ensoulment and it made the Angelus in Angel stir-crazy.
>I do completely agree with that.. Since I seem to be
>copying from this e-mail a lot lately *g*.. This was
>at the very beginning of my "theory" e-mail.. I wrote
>it before those ideas popped in my head..
>
>~~Anyway, here's another point to ponder.. Consider
>the order/timing of events. 1. Angel discovers the
>baby's heartbeat (which automatically equals a soul,
>ya know..), and Darla rather vehemently denies
>this possibility. 2. Darla and Angel see the baby on
>the US screen.. it was after this that Darla and Angel
>both changed a little (or started to at least). It
>finally became *real* for the both of them. They were
>having a child, and there it was.. Angel even says
>something at one point to Darla about this very fact.
>3. Darla goes into "labor," and afterwards is not at
>all the same (neither is Angel for that matter). A
>reason pertaining to the baby's soul is given, but
>also consider that labor will make the baby *Very*
>*VERY* real to her. I can only speak in terms of
>having cramps from Hell on occasion, but no amount of
>denial on the planet can make them go away!! (Though
>drugs are so blissfully helpful.. *G*) That baby *was*
>*inside* *her*, doing its damnedest to fight its way
>out.. She could feel it even more than its picture
>allowed.~~
>

Yes. Yes. YES!!!! :) That's *exactly* what I've been thinking. In Quickening and Lullaby, the baby became *real* for Darla and Angel and their reaction to that was to become *parents*. Sheesh, now I'm sniffling over darla's sacrifice and wishing that just once to see a scene where she could see her baby. Sappy, I know, but Lullaby was such a fantastic ep.
>
>I agree that it was both as well. Darla was a mother.
>I don't care if she was an evil demon, she was still a
>mother, carrying her child. =) I'll argue till the
>cows come home that Darla felt *something* for that
>baby! ; ) It is canon that vampires can feel love. The
>soul inside then allowed those feelings to show
>themselves in a greater capacity. But technically,
>those feelings would still have to be there in the
>first place to allow the soul to magnify them.. =)
>
>Am I confusing you yet??? ; )

Nope. You are making me stand up and cheer. I've always believed that vampires could love, long before Dru said it in "Crush". Spike was what convinced me along with the Spike/Dru relationship. As for the soul, I think all that matters is someone's actions, with or without possession of a soul. The soul most likely makes a person accept the idea of compassion and caring, but by no means is it exclusive to the soul-having.
>
>LMAO! Buster it is! =) And yeah, I'm loving the
>possibilities with this baby arc too!!

Funny thing is that everytime I picture a "Buster", I keep thinking of Buster Bunny on Tiny toon Adventures. Anyway, Buster's a cute nickname.
>
>>>
>
>>
>>I think that idea is pretty common in some cultures.
>>Life and Death are two sides of the same coin. You
>>can't have one without the other. In TSILA, five
>>vampires were killed so that Darla could live. In
>>Lullabye, Darla killed herself so that her son could
>>live.
>
>
>Yeah I agree, they're the same basic thing in my book
>as well. Hey, have any of you ever seen "The Seventh
>Sign" with Demi Moore?? Hope I'm not spoiling anyone,
>but in the end she gives her soul (therefore life) to
>her still-born son, thereby stopping the occuring
>apocalypse. . . Darla.. naaahhhhhhhh. . . . ; )

I've never seen "The Seventh Sign", but that's interesting. Darla may not have had a soul, but she had an un-life and she willingly and bravely gave it up for her unborn son. Darla did something really good in that act and I hope it is acknowledged in AtS.
>
>Yeah, that was my interp as well. Though I do still
>wonder why it said there will be only death,
>meaning no life, in the birth.. As soon as the "birth"
>happened, that baby was *alive*.. *confuddled* ; )

Hmm. Maybe only death was just an emphansis shown by the translator to Lilah, who was rather pleased with that turnout.
>
>Hmmmm.. that's a cool possibility.. though, why then
>was the baby dying at the end??? (And just how the
>Hell *did* Wes know Buster's *bweg* heart rate had
>dropped?!?!?)

Okay, baby dying, maybe it was because the child was getting ready to be born, therefore the majics that are keeping darla immortal are loosening their hold on the baby, making it vulnerable to death? As for Wes knowing that the baby's heartbeat was dropping, I have no clue. I'm not much of a nitpicker, but it was interesting to see Wesley take on the role of Dr. Carter. perhaps the watcher's Council makes its Watchers go through mandatory gynecology lessons and they were taught to magically hear heartbeats without the aid of a stethoscope? Or...(lightbulb going off) Darla doesn't have a heartbeat, so the only heartbeat that Wes could hear was the baby's.
>
>
>
>Definitely, definitely and definitely. I'm convinced
>Holtz is nothing but a pawn and Sahjan has ulterior
>motives up the wazoo! =) (What the heck is a wazoo
>anyway?? *g*)

I think it is a close relative of the yazoo. ;)
>~~~Holtz glared coolly at Sahjan, "He's purified, it's
>over."
>
>"It is not over, not till Angelus and the child are
>dead."
>
>"I am not your assassin, demon," Holtz stated.
>
>"What about your vengeance? Your family? Should he
>live when you have no reason to? Should his son grow
>up when your children didn't?"
>
>"The cross no longer burns him. The demon is dead.
>My quest for vengeance is done. I'm taking him
>home."~~~
>
>~~~"The demon that murdered my family has finally paid
>for its sins," Holtz replied. "I am at peace."
>
>"Because of what I did his soul may be judged
>separately from the demon," Holtz replied.~~~
>
>
>Oh yeah, I definitely love Holtz!! =)

Oh, my. Nice excerpt. I'd like to read the rest if possible. Where can I find this fic?
>
>Okay.. well.. how 'bout this then.. (another idea that
>just popped in my head. Can you tell I LOVE
>hypothesizing?? *g*)
>
>
>Darla did both evil and.. not so evil *g* things while
>pregnant. (Entirely a plot device yes, but..) It took
>Angel till the very end of Offspring to realize the
>baby had a soul/heartbeat. Why didn't he notice it
>immediately?? All of Angel's talk about a
>"half-miracle.." Darla (the mother) is soulless, Angel
>(the father) has his soul..
>
>So what if the baby has.. ermmm.. "half" a soul?? Like
>maybe it isn't permanently "attached" and *can* come
>and go. Sometimes Buster can be evil, sometimes good..
>Perhaps there is a strong pull towards both?? It will
>be Angel's "job" (and who better to do it really??
>Hence the reason this baby is his! *g*) to teach him
>to control his darker side and never give into it.. To
>fight to keep his soul in his body..

Hmm. Interesting. Nice shades of grey there.
>
>Ooooohh wait.. just thought of something! Nathan Reed
>(think it was him, not Holland..) told Lindsey that
>all the prophecies said the vampire with a soul was
>pivotal in the coming apocalypse. But the grey area is
>the side for which he fought. W&H's job was to make
>that area as grey as possible.. What if this actually
>refers to Buster, and not Angel, according to the
>thoughts above??!?! Hmmmmm.. I'm gonna have to go and
>think on this now!! *GGG* Telling you, I love
>theorizing! =)

So do I. You have interesting theories.
>No, you're perfectly fine. =) Heck, most of the time
>*I* throw out my ideas as patently ridiculous or
>stupid anyway! And I always appreciate "feedback" of
>any kind. =) Now, does my new "theory" sound any
>better to you (or Ngser =) )?? And feel free to add
>on or change it as well.

Your theories are pretty cool. I, too, can come up with ridiculous theories, half the fun in theorizing with BtVS and AtS is the vast amount of theorizing one can do regarding the characters and their motives. I can't wait until dec. 10 to see "dad".

~Khali

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Replies:

Re: The story you requested.. -- Trinity, 21:36:49 11/30/01 Fri
- Re: The story you requested.. -- KhaliG, 13:28:51 12/01/01 Sat