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Date Posted: 21:03:16 07/23/24 Tue
Author: DH
Author Host/IP: 174.161.116.159
Subject: Why are Morris Brown, Jacksonville, and Evansville "Small College Defunct" Instead of "Big College Defunct"

Both were I-AA when they dropped the football, I dont see why they aren't in the Big College Defunct list.

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[> Re: Why are Morris Brown, Jacksonville, and Evansville "Small College Defunct" Instead of "Big College Defunct" -- charles arey, 19:04:29 07/24/24 Wed (98.19.145.126)

>Both were I-AA when they dropped the football, I dont
>see why they aren't in the Big College Defunct list.f

I'm not sure, but that's apparently what the NCAA decided. For that distinction I used a document called the NCAA Record Book, 2019 Edition, of which this is a portion:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2019/added.pdf

The document includes the following passage:

"NATIONALLY PROMINENT TEAMS THAT PERMANENTLY DROPPED FOOTBALL
Listed alphabetically are the all-time records of teams formerly classified as major college that permanently discontinued football. Also included are those teams
that, retroactively, are considered to have been major college (before the advent of official classification in 1937) by virtue of their schedules (that is, at least
half of their games versus other major-college opponents). All schools listed were considered to have been major college or classified in either the FBS or
FCS for a minimum of 10 consecutive seasons."

That last sentence apparently excludes both Morris Brown (which was in Division I-AA for just two years (I think)) before the program was dropped, and Evansville, which was in the PFL for about five years after moving up from Division III.

Jacksonville, however, existed for 22 years, which I think were entirely within I-AA and FCS. Yet JU is not listed among the "Nationally Prominent Teams Which Dropped football" - however, that could be due to the publication pre-dating JU's discontinuation of football (which happened at the end of 2019).

Now, I am not sure if this document is using "Nationally Prominent Teams" as a synonym for what the NCAA used to call a "Major College", but I am assuming that that's likely the case.

To further complicate matters - as I mentioned at the website, I thought (about 25-30 years ago) that the cutoff between "major college" and "small college" was related to whether football scholarships were offered. Back then Division I-A teams offered scholarships, but Division II, Division III, and NAIA did not; Division I-AA was composed of mostly scholarship conferences but some non-scholarship ones, also (Ivy League, Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference, Patriot League (I think), and Pioneer Football League).

So I guess the questions to ask are, was I mistaken somehow about that NCAA distinction between "major" and "small"? Did JU ever offer scholarships? Is there a newer version of this NCAA Football Record Book (I cannot find one newer than 2019) that might clarify things? However I'm leaning towards thinking that JU probably should be considered "major" if the MAAC teams (like Siena, Iona, St. Peter's, etc) are.

The complete list of "Nationally Prominent" dropped teams from the above document is as follow:

Boston U. 1884-1997
Cal St. Fullerton 1970-92
Canisius 1918-2002
Carlisle Indian School 1893-1917
Centenary (LA) 1894-1947
Creighton 1900-42
Denver 1885-1960
Detroit 1896-1964
East Tenn. St. 1920-2003
Fairfield 1996-2002
George Washington 1890-1966
Gonzaga 1892-1941
Haskell Institute 1896-1938
Hofstra 1937-2009
Iona 1978-2008
La Salle 1900-2007
Long Beach St. 1955-91
Loyola Marymount 1889-1951
Manhattan 1923-42
Marquette 1892-1960
New York U. 1873-1952
Northeastern 1933-2009
Pacific 1919-95
St. Bonaventure 1895-1951
St. John’s (NY) 1884-2002
Saint Louis 1899-1949
St. Mary’s (CA) 1892-2003
Saint Peter’s 1971-2006
San Francisco 1924-71
Santa Clara 1896-1992
Siena 1965-2003
Texas-Arlington 1959-85
Wichita St. 1897-1986
Xavier 1900-73

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[> [> Re: Why are Morris Brown, Jacksonville, and Evansville "Small College Defunct" Instead of "Big College Defunct" -- David S., 01:48:16 07/26/24 Fri (173.216.87.236)

>>Both were I-AA when they dropped the football, I dont
>>see why they aren't in the Big College Defunct list.f
>
>I'm not sure, but that's apparently what the NCAA
>decided. For that distinction I used a document called
>the NCAA Record Book, 2019 Edition, of which this is a
>portion:
>
>http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2019/add
>ed.pdf
>
>The document includes the following passage:
>
>"NATIONALLY PROMINENT TEAMS THAT PERMANENTLY DROPPED
>FOOTBALL
>Listed alphabetically are the all-time records of
>teams formerly classified as major college that
>permanently discontinued football. Also included are
>those teams
>that, retroactively, are considered to have been major
>college (before the advent of official classification
>in 1937) by virtue of their schedules (that is, at
>least
>half of their games versus other major-college
>opponents). All schools listed were considered to have
>been major college or classified in either the FBS or
>FCS for a minimum of 10 consecutive seasons."
>
>That last sentence apparently excludes both Morris
>Brown (which was in Division I-AA for just two years
>(I think)) before the program was dropped, and
>Evansville, which was in the PFL for about five years
>after moving up from Division III.
>
>Jacksonville, however, existed for 22 years, which I
>think were entirely within I-AA and FCS. Yet JU is not
>listed among the "Nationally Prominent Teams Which
>Dropped football" - however, that could be due to the
>publication pre-dating JU's discontinuation of
>football (which happened at the end of 2019).
>
>Now, I am not sure if this document is using
>"Nationally Prominent Teams" as a synonym for what the
>NCAA used to call a "Major College", but I am assuming
>that that's likely the case.
>
>To further complicate matters - as I mentioned at the
>website, I thought (about 25-30 years ago) that the
>cutoff between "major college" and "small college" was
>related to whether football scholarships were offered.
>Back then Division I-A teams offered scholarships, but
>Division II, Division III, and NAIA did not; Division
>I-AA was composed of mostly scholarship conferences
>but some non-scholarship ones, also (Ivy League, Metro
>Atlantic Athletic Conference, Patriot League (I
>think), and Pioneer Football League).
>
>So I guess the questions to ask are, was I mistaken
>somehow about that NCAA distinction between "major"
>and "small"? Did JU ever offer scholarships? Is there
>a newer version of this NCAA Football Record Book (I
>cannot find one newer than 2019) that might clarify
>things? However I'm leaning towards thinking that JU
>probably should be considered "major" if the MAAC
>teams (like Siena, Iona, St. Peter's, etc) are.
>
>The complete list of "Nationally Prominent" dropped
>teams from the above document is as follow:
>
>Boston U. 1884-1997
>Cal St. Fullerton 1970-92
>Canisius 1918-2002
>Carlisle Indian School 1893-1917
>Centenary (LA) 1894-1947
>Creighton 1900-42
>Denver 1885-1960
>Detroit 1896-1964
>East Tenn. St. 1920-2003
>Fairfield 1996-2002
>George Washington 1890-1966
>Gonzaga 1892-1941
>Haskell Institute 1896-1938
>Hofstra 1937-2009
>Iona 1978-2008
>La Salle 1900-2007
>Long Beach St. 1955-91
>Loyola Marymount 1889-1951
>Manhattan 1923-42
>Marquette 1892-1960
>New York U. 1873-1952
>Northeastern 1933-2009
>Pacific 1919-95
>St. Bonaventure 1895-1951
>St. John’s (NY) 1884-2002
>Saint Louis 1899-1949
>St. Mary’s (CA) 1892-2003
>Saint Peter’s 1971-2006
>San Francisco 1924-71
>Santa Clara 1896-1992
>Siena 1965-2003
>Texas-Arlington 1959-85
>Wichita St. 1897-1986
>Xavier 1900-73



I did find some that are puzzling like these schools as well.

Oklahoma City U have been in D1 for a very long time which included football.

Evansville actually was part of the big boys in the early days and dropped out and then came back.

Catholic U had been D1 for a while before the FBS/FCS sp;it.

CCNY won the D1 men's basketball in the early days.

Georgetown DC of course it was brought back.

Niagara had football while being in the top level.

Rhodes, Southwestern TX (SWC), Case Western Reserve or Case and Western Reserve, Washington and Lee (SoCon), Fordham, Hardin Simmons 9border), Louisiana College, Lake Forest (was in the nmeeting to form the Big 10), Samford (So-Con), College of Idaho (was in the same conference for Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State and Idaho before the PAC 12 formed), Villanova, Lamar, West Texas A&M (FBS Indy until 85), East Tennessee State all should be major who restarted football.

Brooklyn was in D1 when they had football.

Bradley
UC-Santa Barbara
District Columbia
Drexel
College of Emporia in the very old days before the NCAA formed.
Tampa was in D1 when they had football.
Vermont D1
CalTech shared a conference with UCLA before the PAC 12 formed.
Whitman same as College of Idaho
CSU-LA was in the Big West.
Colorado College formed the RMAC with Colorado, Colorado State, Denver, BYU, Wyoming and Utah.

I know that conferences and alliances are all messed up in the old days since so many come and go or merged with each other.

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