Re: another marriage by faith -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 12:57:36 05/30/04 Sun
Author: Bob
Subject: Re: another marriage by faith
In reply to: Andrew S. 's message, "Re: another marriage by faith" on 23:36:04 05/29/04 Sat

Andy and Chris and all,
Happy Pentecost to you.

Thanks for your glimpse inside the Waterloo UBF group. It's great to talk about these things. You said, "Workhard showed you alot of grace and patience...". But in reality it sounds like you were still pretty much in the UBF love bombing stage. After you move into UBF common life, or make a commitment to UBF ministry, then they start to reign you in bit by bit until you submit and obey the director. This happened to me too. For the first year or so in UBF, I also had a girlfriend, other friends and enjoyed having a few
brown pops. But they changed all that.

By the way, why do we need Workhard Yoon's grace and patience anyways. What's the matter with having friends outside UBF or having a good beer now and then. Can we still be a Christian alive for Christ and do these things?
For sure. The UBF program might have a benefit for a season in one's spiritual life, but the stale legalism is a spirit killer in the long run.

I would have to agree with Chris that getting a good devotional life is essential. You probably need to find a good church too and there are lots. Chris suggested taking some seminary courses. This is right on. Have you ever heard of Tyndale College/Seminary in Toronto. I don't where you are at right now, but this is an amazing place to grow in Christ, meet other young impassioned Christians and have healthy and godly fellowship. I want to do something like this soon.

Bob

>Bob,
>
>Thanks for replying. I've also read that book by
>Philip Yancey. It was really great. In fact, I read
>it while I was in UBF. Also while in UBF, I continued
>my active social life with my friends, played in a
>rock band, and drank some good beer.. I must say that
>I never completely "bought" the whole UBF "program."
>I rebuffed their suggestions that I move in with other
>UBF members to experience "common life." I hated the
>UBF jargon and disliked being called a shepherd - a
>useless title. One time, when we visited Toledo UBF,
>I sensed Work Hard and Andy's desire to please Paul
>Hong as much as possible. We had a little song
>prepared for Toledo and it had to be PERFECT. But
>Work Hard wasn't happy with the vocal harmony Andy was
>practicing, so he ordered Andy to desist. We
>naturally protested - as a musician, I know when
>singing is bad, and it wasn't that bad. It would have
>been pleasing praise to God's ears. Later, Andy
>confided to me that it was a Really Bad Thing to
>question Work Hard's decisions in public. I remember
>my retort: "Are we supposed to be robots, then?"
>I was a messenger twice. Both times I resisted a lot
>of change to my messages. I had a girlfriend while in
>UBF. I asked permission to miss Friday testimony
>sharing twice so I could play a concert in a bar with
>my band. When they carefully asked me what I was
>doing for Christmas, I said in no uncertain terms I
>was going home to see my family. Hah, I even started
>picking all the special music for Sunday services on
>my own, until Work Hard gently suggested that I should
>run it by him first! Finally, when they said I
>couldn't be baptised, when I learned about Samuel
>Lee's true colours, when I realized I would be forced
>to fish 150 people in one summer, I left. I was
>probably one of the most wild, rebellious "shepherds"
>they ever had. And I got away with it - Work Hard
>showed me a lot of grace and patience, given what I
>now know of the usual standards for UBF chapters. I
>wonder why?
>
>Hmm, what am I saying here? Perhaps that my
>experience with UBF was a little different than many
>people's, it was at least keeping me accountable to
>reading my Bible, meditating upon it weekly, and
>discussing it with others. I knew when I was in UBF
>that some of its teachings were weird. I don't think
>I ever believed in the whole UBF "system," it always
>seemed a little off to me. But nevertheless the Word
>of God speaks truth to a heart that is ready to
>receive it regularly. I have no doubt that God put me
>in UBF for a while for a reason. If you look past the
>goofy stories, jargon, hilarious grammar and Korean
>mannerisms in the UBF messages, there can be some
>truth there. My soul gobbled up the truth part and
>ran with it. Meanwhile, the churches I've attended
>since, they barely open their Bibles. Yes, God has
>blessed me since UBF with a great deal of new
>knowledge about freedom in Christ, the new self, the
>free will we possess, about willingly coming to him in
>the morning and spending the day in free conversation
>with him. But I miss the Word. I just don't read it
>often enough.. and feel powerless to change my ways.
>
>I don't want to seem proud here.. UBF certainly
>deceived me and changed my behaviour for the worse in
>many ways. I participated in bothering people on
>campus ("fishing"). I badgered my friends and family
>to come to conferences and worship services. I
>accepted "message training" so that I could sound more
>like a Missionary when giving a message. Were it not
>for the grace and intervention of God I would still be
>in the cult, just like Andy. But I managed to keep my
>critical thinking pretty much intact throughout the 2
>years, and therefore was able to receive a lot of
>blessing while in UBF. I can't really deny this.
>Hence, I am worried about my former friends and miss
>them. They did not "control" me, and we had good
>times. I even miss Work Hard and Hannah. Right now
>it looks like Andy's suffering a lot. I hope God also
>intervenes for him soon.
>
>Andrew
>
>
>>Hi Andrew,
>>
>>Looks like Andy Stumpf is getting a UBF arranged
>>marraige, which Brian Karcher (Detroit UBF) would say
>>is arranged only by God and not by men. Hah! There was
>>probably a certain amount of coersion involved to get
>>him this far into the process. But we never see this.
>>But if you read between the lines in his "2004 Spring
>>Retreat/Report" you may sense that he is having a good
>>deal of anxiety/doubt about going through with all
>>this. He is worried about his poverty, etc. Should he
>>be worried about this? Most likely. Is he worried
>>about other stuff too? Has he even met Jennifer? Has
>>he met her say more than once in passing at a
>>conference some where? Are his parents (the Stumpf
>>family) allowed to even have any say or take part in
>>the process? Maybe not. Most likely not.
>>
>>You have called Andy "brilliant". But I think he has
>>been royally hoodwinked. Yes, he is intelligent. Yes,
>>he's going to do a PHD in philosophy. But do you
>>notice any absence of critical thinking here? In fact
>>Workhard Yoon is smarter than Andy and has him just
>>where he wants him - isolated,
>>puffed up and broke. And controlling his marital and
>>family destiny completely. You're right, we need to
>>pray for him, especially to open his eyes and break
>>free through all this.
>>
>>Amongst the many saddening things in this report, I
>>think one of the saddest is Andy's rationalization of
>>his rejection at UofT and his winning the scholarship
>>for his studies at Waterloo. He dissed himself, saying
>>that his desire to go to UofT was worldy anyway. I
>>tend to disagree as the UofT is a definately a
>>superior educational experience for sure. He should
>>have kept trying. And yet going to UofT is worldly,
>>leaving Waterloo to go to Toronto is worldly, blah,
>>blah, blah. I think that Workhard has got him in the
>>trap. He will stay in Waterloo, study in Waterloo,
>>marry in Waterloo and be trapped in the Waterloo UBF.
>>He will be Workhards little Abraham-of-faith
>>
>>You said, "the brothers and sisters in Waterloo are
>>sincere humble Christians..". Really? If this includes
>>Workhard Yoon, and M. Hannah Yoon remember that they
>>were part of the lawless Winnipeg UBF cult which
>>abused people and fled Winnipeg with out any
>>repentance for their sins. They also have rejected any
>>kind of reform of the UBF. They also use the same kind
>>of cult controlling techniques used in other
>>UBF chapters. They are essentially isolationist,
>>elitist and deceptive. Workhard Yoon is so proud of
>>himself that the Waterloo UBF no longer joins the
>>other Ontario chapters for Spring Conference but has
>>their own (with London UBF).
>>
>>Andrew, don't diss yourself about reading the bible
>>less than you did when you were in UBF. Just resolve
>>to study and learn it right. In UBF they seem to study
>>it more, but the teaching is corrupted by UBF cultism.
>>Also if you read Andy Stumpf's "Report" you will even
>>hear from his own lips that most people participate in
>>these activities do so half heartedly (or
>>"insincerely"). They are going through the motions.
>>Andy does and has, I did, most people have as well.
>>These days my bible study is less but is totally new
>>and wonderful.
>>
>>Recently, I've been reading a really good book that
>>has helped me towards healing by Phillip Yancey called
>>"Soul Survivor:How Thirteen Unlikely Mentors Helped My
>>Faith Survive the Church". I recommend it. Christian
>>life is so much richer and more blessed outside the
>>UBF. There's no turning back. How has God
>>blessed/enriched your life since leaving the UBF?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>It's been 2 years since I left UBF. I was checking
>>>the Waterloo UBF website recently for any news about
>>>my old UBF friends, especially Andy Stumpf. Looks
>>>like they have updated with Andy's report about the
>>>annual Spring Retreat. In it, he mentions that he
>>>will be married at the end of the summer to someone
>>>named "Jennifer." It is greatly distressing to see
>my
>>>brilliant, compassionate old friend enter the next
>>>level of subjugation to UBF's will.
>>>I want to pray for Andy. Who is his fiancee? Is she
>>>a good woman? I know that the brothers and sisters
>in
>>>Waterloo are sincere, humble Christians who only
>>>desire to serve - but is there any hope for them to
>>>see the truth about the organization to which they
>>>belong?
>>>Incidentally, I cannot condemn UBF wholeheartedly.
>It
>>>is with a heavy heart that I must admit that in UBF I
>>>read the Bible far more often than I do now. Two
>>>years removed from the organization, I can start to
>>>see how UBF at least gave me some accountability for
>>>Bible reading and spiritual growth, while subsequent
>>>efforts to live the life of a disciple in mainstream
>>>church systems have met with much sin and failure.
>>>Although I know much more about freedom in Christ
>>>these days, I lack discipline. I wish I could find
>>>the middle ground.
>>>
>>>Anyways, any info. would be appreciated.
>>>Andrew

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