Re: Brainwashing, Manipulation -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 08:17:24 06/22/04 Tue
Author: Chris
Subject: Re: Brainwashing, Manipulation
In reply to: fellow christian 's message, "Re: Brainwashing, Manipulation;The other side of the medal" on 06:44:14 06/22/04 Tue

Thanks for the contribution, FC. Obviously the issue bothers you and that's a good sign.

You wrote "As a christian, I believe in the freedom of will."

Just as a sidemark, I want to point out that this is not self-evident. Reformed theology denies free will in several respects, for instance. I don't want to start a discussion about free will vs. predestination, I just want to point out that it's not self-evident that a Christian believes in the freedom of will.

Anyway, this is a complete different question, the question whether a man can resist God with his "free will", not the question whether a man can resists a cult leader.

My position in this respect is the same that I have in the discussion of free will vs. predestination. I believe both things exist in a complementary way. And I do believe the same about free will vs. "brainwashing". I believe these things are not contradictory. You have your own free will, but on the other side, people are able to manipulate your decisions and feelings. There are environments which are very manipulative, cults.

How do you think the various examples given such as Jonestown, Moonies, ICoC, Golwalla, AUM, Branch Davidians etc. operate? They manipulate people with very similar methods. For these methods of cult mind control we use the popular and simplifying term "brainwashing."

The leaders of your group, UBF, often told how people had been "brainwashed" by deprogrammers or reformers. We have given several examples where Samuel Lee and Stephanus Park (Bonn) claimed these things. It was claimed by Stephanus Park (actually I believe that this was claimed by Peter Chang and Park only repeated his words) that Andreas had been brainwashed by the Dortmund UBF leader in only a few days. I think it is ridiculous. If the Dortmund UBF leader would be so good in brainwashing, his group would be much larger. On the other hand, I believe a long-run cult environment and a psychologically "clever" cult leader are able to "brainwash" people effectively.

To repeat my point: For me, the existence of cult mind control and the concept of free will are not really contradictory.

FC, you also speak about "resisting brainwashing". I think you are on a wrong track here. As we all know, the problem with the kind of brainwashing we are speaking about lies in the fact that you are not aware that you are brainwashed. Instead you perceive it as having a learnful mind towards the wonderful teachings of a servant of God. You would never think about "resisting" these teachings. Instead, you eat them like bread without being aware.

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Replies:

Brainwashing reduced to social or religous minorities -- Chris, 08:36:44 06/22/04 Tue