Re: Sorry to post a new one again -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 05:33:56 11/26/04 Fri
Author: Chris
Subject: Re: Sorry to post a new one again
In reply to: A Christian Man 's message, "Sorry to post a new one again" on 02:03:14 11/26/04 Fri

Please, if you open a new discussion thread, at least chose an appropriate title as Message subject. We have a few rules for posting here.

I think one problem is that you do not speak about concrete issues. Pick one concrete issue that is questionable for you and we can talk about it.

Where is your evidence?

The evidence is the consistent testimony of many witnesses and our own experience.

If you have none, then what you say is hearsay, and I have no reason to believe you over them.

The Bible does not take the word of witnesses lightly as you do. If you have two or three witnesses, you have to take their testimony serious. We have not only two or three, but a cloud of witnesses, people who have been much longer in UBF than you have been, and who all report the same kind of problems. Among them are not only "sheep", but also insiders and leaders. We have a long track record with written and other evidence for most of our claims. Have a look at the web sites or articles about UBF.

One thing came to mind, If some of the terrible things that are alleged on this site really happened, then why aren't the people who perpetrated the crimes in jail? Did you ever call the police? Did you ever press charges?

Good question, but there are some good answers as well.

There have been attempts to do this, for instance in Bonn, where even neighbours and teachers saw the abuse and reported it to the police. However, it is nearly impossible to get a cult leader into jail.

* Most of our complaints concern spiritual abuse. Unfortunately, spiritual abuse is not a punishable crime. Like you, the government and the people who made the laws strongly believe in free will and did not have mind control situations in mind when they made the laws.

* Spiritual abuse often extends over years and decades, and members often recognize what leaders have done to them after many years, when the issues are already time-barred.

* Many victims of spiritual abuse prefer to keep silent, just as many victims of sexual abuse are silent. First, because speaking about it may be an embarassing and shameful experience, second, because they may still be mentally and spiritually confused, third, because they believe it is more Christian to be silent, forth, because they still may believe in the stories that something horrible may happend to them if they criticize UBF, fifth because they simply want to forget, and for many other reasons. The people who are writing here are only the tip of an iceberg.

* Other victims cannot speak up because things are too shameful to speak about it. This is usually the case when there was sexual abuse or adultery involved. They try to solve this internally, not at a court. Or they have to be considerate of their marriage partners who are still in the cult and they would jeopardize their marriage if they do anything against the cult. I know of several such cases in UBF.

* Witnesses are reluctant to speak. They don't want to get into troubles.

* The abuse usually happens in 1:1 situations where the word of the victim is standing against the word of the leader who is backed up and defended by all of his loyal followers.

* The abuse usually happens "voluntarily." There is usually no physical coercion involved, only psychological. You are right, nobody held a gun to the head of the woman who has been forced to abort her child. It was only the word of the "servant of God."

* In the case of Bonn, even beatings happened and there were witnesses who testified. But the people who had been beaten were beaten voluntarily. They stretched out their hands to receive the beatings and nobody held them. This, unfortunately, is not punishable in Germany.

* In the case of Bonn, the leader owns 4 houses, all payed by UBF members. But nothing can be done against it, because they gave him the money over years and decades, in closed envelops, without getting any receipt.

* Concerning abuse of money: It is nearly impossible to give evidence for the abuse when offering money is handed over in closed envelopes, when there are no financial accounts or only the leader and loyal followers have insight into the books.

* There are always cult experts who side with cults for various reasons and testify in favor of cults in the courts. They are payed by groups like Scientology or the Moonies. Even if groups like the UPC have been accused, Scientology jumped in for their defense, with their high-payed lawyers, and succeeded in bankrupting the old CAN (see here) (Samuel Lee rejoiced very much after that victory of Scientology, he called the era after CAN the "era of Christ", whereas in reality it looked more like the start of an era of cults)

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Replies:

Re: Sorry to post a new one again -- Joe, 09:02:37 11/26/04 Fri

A different question -- Joe, 10:47:55 11/26/04 Fri

And this is... -- Mike K., 08:29:09 11/27/04 Sat