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Date Posted: 10:59:56 08/17/04 Tue
Author: realnickt@yahoo.com
Subject: free advice from a former ubfin
In reply to: Mitch 's message, "Re: To Mitch and J" on 22:20:52 08/16/04 Mon

Dear Mitch,

Thank you for your response. You wrote alot, I may not be able to answer everything, but I think there is some more info you should know, it will help to clear things up.

In Korea, if someone decided to stop attending the ubf, all the members of the chapter would go to that person's house at the same time, and stand outside and expect the person to come back to the ubf. This was a very famous example of 'shepherd heart' from the early days of ubf. It is really a type of peer pressure, that they will try to hold you accountable for your decision to leave the group. To Koreans, this story is something that they boast about, and they consider Americans as extremely selfish because Americans do not do this when an American kid left the group. So they did something similar by coming to your workplace, a type of trying to make you accountable for leaving the group. You cannot leave quietly, you must give an account of your leaving, and you must give a good reason. And gues what? according to ubf, there is never a good reason for leaving ubf, so you can't leave! The bad vibes from this kind of encounter are not becuase of your behavior, it is totally on them.

In cases of genuine communiction, there is a cycle of communication of alternately speaking and listening, with each party free to express their wants and concerns. In pseudo-communication, the dialogue is being steered by one or both parties into a pre-determined direction. ubf people will not let you express your real concerns, you are actually not even allowed to think what you have been thinking the last couple weeks. So to ask if you were simply 'offended' minimizes your concerns to just have gotten upset, where in reality you may be thinking that these people are attempting to take over your life and future. They don't want you to bring up serious topics, that you are sensing they are trying to control you (they have been already) They are will only let you express being upset, but then you should get back into the ubf system again.

Then the question about did they do something to 'offend' you, well that is a loaded question. It would seem to be sincere if they just asked you why you left the group, then you could decide how to answer or what to dicuss, or to tell them that you don't want to discuss the matter, this is not the time or place, etc. If they are willing to discuss honestly, then they should start with a very open ended statement. But instead they restricted their question to 'did we offend you?' So your answer should only be either yes or no. In smaller chapters, my guess is they did not really offend you too much. (Chicago ubf is very offensive, your chapter was probably not) But the approach of discussing 'offending' is very calculated. Also, not sure if you know this, but interaction dynamics assume that the person asking the questions is in control of the conversation. If you go to buy a car, the salesperson does not let the customer ask him all the questions, the salesman will ask all the questions and the customer will give all the answers. A controlling person does not allow the other person to ask questions, the controlling person asks all the questions. The appearing at work wihtout warning is a major intrusion, as others have said.

Mitch, do you think you should try to engage in honest dialogue witht these people? I would let you think about a couple of assumptions before you do. First, no matter what you discuss or how long you discuss it, the ubfins are probably never going to change. Period. Those people have been given a thousand opportunities to adjust their attitudes and behavior, and they have refused all one thousand times. Second, you may get lured back into the group by their false promises to make the needed changes. One guy from LA wrote that Ike Kim promised a zillion changes a few years ago. Ike gave alot of lip service to changing, but in the end they isolated all who wanted changes and forced them out within a couple of years, and any actual changes made were for the worse. And finally, if you do not take matters into your own hands now, it will be even more difficult to do so later. I had made a decision by 1992 that I wanted out of Chicago ubf, but for the next ten years I was powerless to carry out my decision, mostly because of my arranged marriage partner. If you don't make the correct decision now, you will pay for it for many years.

You might think about contacting any remaining friend and let them know your reason for leaving. Do not expect them to be happy to hear from you. But let them know that you found some serious dangers at ubf, especially the arranged and controlled marriage. This is a giant danger. They may not respond right now, but your version will be toally different from the official version for your leaving, and it may awaken something in them at another time. So ubf never allows contact with former members, except to lure them back.

You can go to any new place you want to, the first thing I would suggest is simply start looking for a place where you can learn the Bible the correct way. You have been taught so many outrageuos ideas at ubf, you need to clear those out of your head. Isuggest you look for a Bible college that has adult continuing ed classes for beginners. Moody Bible Institute offers classes for $25, taught by reputable pastors and professors. (most of them are now very aware of ubf) You should look for something like that and just learn correct Bible basics for one year. They will never mention phrases like 'marriage problem', 'future security problem', 'American pride', 'old Christian', etc. They will never mention the name of Samuel Lee or Sara Bury either. Simply learn the gospel that says that we are saved by the grace of God alone, through His free gift of grace in Christ Jesus. There is nothing else we need to do. Please learn the gospel of the grace of God, it was denied at ubf. ubf is teaching a false 'gospel of ubf works' like the OT, and anyone who teaches works is actually rejecting the gospel of the grace of God. Please find healthy Bible teaching or articles.

Here are some websites you can visit

www.enjoythebible.org

and www.bereanbiblesociety.org

There are a couple of excellent audio messages at this link

http://bereanbiblesociety.org/bibletime/

Please listen to the messages "Is Salvation Certain?" parts I and II. Please listen to them a number of times. The answer is yes, salvation is one time for all time, totally certain in Christ.

Also, this site will give a very detailed analysis of the who, what when where why to be saved:

http://www.withchrist.org/MJS/newbirth.htm

Mitch, many who leave ubf want to eradicate the ubf from their life and memory. I find it more therapeutic to deal with the wrong decisions I made to remain in the ubf back then. At several key points I debated whether to stay or go, but I did not think deeply or get others input. I just made spurious decisions to stay. Get informed, find out more about how they operate and how they deceived you. And please write down your thoughts and memories, I would like to make a book and have alot of friends put their stories in it, so that others may be spared from what we went through. Get back in touch with all your old friends and family, they missed you alot and will be greatly encouraged to hear from you. Get on with life. God bless you, please drop me an e-mail sometime. NT

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Replies:

Re: To Mitch and J -- heart4jc, 13:21:50 08/17/04 Tue

Re: To Mitch and J -- former, 13:46:40 08/17/04 Tue

Re: To Mitch and J -- heart4jc, 14:11:32 08/17/04 Tue

Re: To Mitch and J -- Mitch, 20:16:26 08/21/04 Sat

Re: UBF's sincerety -- Chris, 04:01:47 08/22/04 Sun
- Re: UBF's sincerety -- Mitch, 09:44:31 08/22/04 Sun
  - Re: UBF's sincerety -- Chris, 10:49:42 08/22/04 Sun