VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 14:05:00 10/11/04 Mon
Author: Tom F
Subject: Thoughts to your response...
In reply to: Brian Karcher 's message, "Re: UBF Doctrine" on 01:12:06 10/10/04 Sun

Most of the non/ex-UBF people here who have been responding to this thread have taken up answers that I agree with. Most of the debates that have been going on here are truly about UBF's take on doctrine versus Theological Issues in orthodox Christianity. For instance, the stand on Calvinism vs. Armenianism really does not have anything to do with UBF's slant on salvation. That issue is based on two approaches to interpretation of scripture (as well as the nature of God IMHO). The doctrine of salvation in UBF kind of falls (round peg in a square hole) in between these two sides, more from a position of "well, I kind of know what calvinism talks about, and I like what Armenianism has to say, but I really want it to be this". UBF's doctrine is the understanding that salvation is assured, as long as you maintain spiritual order. If you break spiritual order in UBF, you are in danger of losing your salvation. Sorry Bri, but that has been made evident to many of us again and again and again, not only through the message that has been preached, but through the actions that have validated the designs of the leaders in UBF.

On a quick note, Ron Ward's message to me about losing my salvation was clear. He wasn't talking about self-examination. He was talking about losing your salvation. He told me this specifically for the purpose of planting doubt in myself and further planting trust in him. You can choose to believe that or not. But that's from the horse's mouth.

You mentioned that marraige is a process of forming a relationship. How about before that? Part of following God's will is testing and approving it. If there are major flaws with the person whom you are going to be joined the rest of your life with, then shouldn't you have the ability to choose not to marry, without repercussions from your "Spiritual superiors"? If one is elected to be married in UBF, then fails to accept, they get put on "marraige probation" for 3 years! Who is UBF to do that? Are they deciding that "it is for our own good"? Again, this is somebody else deciding what God's will is for your own life. Nobody but God is the one who can do that.

The attitude of UBF reveals its doctrinal stance. For example, if everyone in UBF did take the doctrinal stance of OSAS, then wouldn't the attitude be different in the ministry? If people believed that once they were saved, they were always saved, then they wouldn't be living in fear of the others in their congregation. Unfortunate but true, UBF's attitude fosters a level of personal fear in its members. The leadership likes the idea of having its underlings work out their salvation with fear and trembling. However, this fear and trembling is reverence directed to UBF and not to God himself. We should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, but we should also be able to approach the throne as a child of God, knowing that God will forgive us and will have mercy on us. The problems come when we don't come to him and acknowledge our problems. Of course, I can take this right back to UBF and ask why they haven't come forward with wrongs they have done and ask for repentance. That's why they are having so many problems for that reason alone. Also, UBF members are not in an atmosphere where forgiveness and reconciliation are encouraged. There is only direction from the leader, and there is not a true two-way relationship. There may seem to be, but there is not.

Brian, I know that you are vehemently trying to defend UBF and the leaders the run it. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe their intentions aren't what they seem? Have you even considered that UBF is unhealthy--not just a ministry with problems, but foundationally unhealthy--and that it should not be defended, but own up to its problems and change? It is easy to say, "Well, we have problems in our ministry, but doesn't everyone? After all, the church isn't perfect." On the other hand, it is much harder to say, "Maybe I've been wrong. Maybe God is trying to tell me something about where I'm at. Maybe UBF isn't all that its cracked up to be. Maybe I need to try to take a fresh look on where I am." I am all for self-examination. This examination should be honest, though, and in every aspect of our life, and question our convictions, our allegiances. Have you checked out other ministries and compared them to UBF? What is UBF's purpose? Is it a church (what organization/denomination does it belong to), or a para-church ministry? If it is for college students, then why doesn't it do what Campus Crusade for Christ or InterVarsity does, which is pointing students to other churches for development? If it is a church, then why does it only focus on college students? What about the rest of the church body? What about the dispersement of gifts? Why is there no collaboration on the use of gifts within UBF?

Even more so, what about communion and baptism? Why aren't those practiced openly? In my time there, I have never seen communion practiced, and the one baptism I saw was only in front of a few people in a closed room (with water on the head, not the body fully immersed). The list goes on, Brian. There are so many inconsistencies within UBF that it is plain to those of us who are on the outside (after being in it) looking in that UBF's practices, its doctrine, and its infrastructure are askew to the normal life of a healthy church. So askew, that it could easily be called a cult.

I believe that many people have been very patient with UBF. I believe that God has been even more patient with UBF. How long His patience will stand, I don't know. What I do know is that UBF does more harm than good. If this and other websites weren't here, people would still be sucked into UBF without an avenue of outside information to have a fair and balanced opinion.

The primary doctrine of Christianity is freedom through faith in Christ. The primary doctrine of UBF is control through fear of UBF. That is the truth of it. If you are not willing to get a second perspective on things, then your own passion for this ministry has blinded you to the truth. Not to be offensive, just stating a fact. My reommendation to you, and to all UBF members, is to find a different church to go to. If you don't like it, find another. Keep going until you see something you like. Something different from UBF, and not a cult. :) Stay in UBF as you check out this new church. Compare and contrast the two. What is different? What is the same? Talk to the Pastor, elders, members of that church. Likewise, check out CCC or IV. How is their college ministry different? Bottom line, test and approve God's will for your life. Test and approve God's will in UBF. You may find that, if you honestly seek the truth, you may be led away from UBF.

In Christ,

Tom Fosler

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:



Post a message:
This forum requires an account to post.
[ Create Account ]
[ Login ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]



Forum timezone: GMT-6
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.