Running scared? & American Christianity -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 15:58:56 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Running scared? & American Christianity
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: watcher
Subject: Running scared?

Highlights of Chicago Sunday Worship Service prayer topics and announcements, 1/7/01:

Samuel Lee will focus on growing America and Canada in 2001 and "not concentrate too much on world mission." Lee said that when something "isn't working" it's time to come up with a new plan and vision, and this plan and vision happens to be to make America "10 times stronger than Korea." Lee also said that "only American missionaries will be considered missionaries." Then he said that only missionaries with more than 10 sheep will be considered missionaries; I don't know if he was still talking about only American missionaries here.

So what could a sudden retreat from world mission and a seeming disdain for non-American missionaries mean? To me it could mean that the Korean Reform movement is having an effect in answer to our prayers. The vast majority of the oversea missionaries are from Korea, and many are from Reform chapters, which often support them. I think Lee is not having much success in trying to
turn missionaries against their Reform chapter directors (as he tried with Matthew Ahn in China). As he said, "Something isn't working." What did he expect? He acts as if these missionaries belong to Chicago UBF and answer to Chicago UBF even though he provides them practically no support. He feels his grip on those oversea missionaries loosening, so he now decides to try to consolidate his power over North American chapters by "focusing on America and Canada." Maybe I've read too much into what Lee said today, but I feel a great hope for the success of Reform, at least in Korea and overseas. I pray that American chapter directors and
members may open their spiritual eyes and revive their consciences, even though they are far removed from the abuses that we in Chicago have to live with.

Author: suitable helper
Subject: Re: Running scared?

This is the greatest news about Lee in a long time. There are two things that make this guy tick: The people he is able to control, and the money these peole send to him.

Korean chapters have financially cut him off. They did this because they could see that the offerings were not being treated as God's money. Lee has never opened the books to anyone. Still, Korean chapters know how much they send, and can see how little is actually done with it. There are debit s and credits. They knew how much the debits were, and couldn't see any credits. Did you see that lame letter that Bogus Dr. Lee sent out last week? Those statments from the bank mean nothing. The problem is there is no control over the income/expenses/assets other than Lee himself.

The number of people is also affected by how much Lee can control these people. He doesn't need 5,000 Korean Reform UBF members if he excercises no control over them. Like the Marxist China leaders, he is afraid that these people will lead him to
being arrested. And the American number may collapse as the truth spreads as to why BD Lee has spurned Reform UBF. Americans are not dumb. They just need to be presented with the facts. The facts are coming out loud and clear.

Author: Leif
Subject: Re: Running scared?

Americans are not dumb? Well, spiritually speaking we pretty much are. If we consider the teachings of Christ the truth, there are many facts presented to us in the Bible. Yet, Americans fail to obey Jesus' commands. They fail to raise disciples and send missionaries. It is pathetic that a small, suffering nation like Korea can out do us. Our nation is very capable but I believe we are spirtually dead. There are too many stagnant churches. Americans believe they are automatically saved by believing in the Christian God. Is this true? I recommend reading D. Bonhoeffer's "Cheap Grace". This is why UBF can be a blessing and why the 40 year work of Dr. Samuel Lee should not be overlooked and just condemned.If he has committed sins against God that is his fault, but you can not deny that he has been a disciple maker. This is another reason why Sam's decision to concentrate on America. Hopefully, with reform or no reform (whatever occurs)it will not hurt raising American missionaries

Author: Dumb American
Subject: American Christianity

Leif, where do you get this propaganda? How much do you know about American evangelical Christianity? Sure there are many dead churches. But there are hundreds of living, vibrant, and effective ministries and churches that all minister to different people and to different needs. Are you saying that Campus Crusade for Christ, IVCF, Navigators, and churches like the Evangelical Free Church and the Christian & Missionary Alliance and dozens of others do not raise disciples? If you do believe this, then you have blinders on.^M
^M
Do you not know that UBF sprang from the Southern Presbyterian Church and the Navigators?^M
^M
So there you are! Caught red-handed in your narrow-minded exclusivism that even anti-reform UBF leaders wouldn't be foolish enough to utter!^M
^M
If you were to visit a real church, you would see what a shambles UBF is in. There are plenty of excellent American Christian believers out there.^M
^M
And don't talk about Samuel Lee as if he raised disciples
single-handedly. The truth is that the greatest work of God has been done through those with Reformest views in Korea, US and Germany, and now Japan. All the while Chicago stagnates and perhaps raises up not disciples, but clones possessing obsessive compulsive disorders in tan suits, red ties, and permanented hair, with konglish accents. The only way Chicago can keep its numbers up is through disinformation and playing shell-games with numbers, and making the same people attend worship services over and over again until the desired number is reached. ^M
^M
You call that disciple making? It sounds like a nightmare to me and all the other American shepherds know it. The Korean who said it was like the movie, "One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest" might be right.^M
^M
Well, there you go!

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: American Christianity

I am sorry, I shouldn't have insulted Chicago Shepherds like that. It is just that it makes me mad when I hear people say such things about American Christians. It is simply not true.

Author: Tony
Subject: Re: Running scared?

Leif,^M
^M
I'm sorry but the information you have been presented and have in turn presented here is complete propaganda. ^M
^M
The Southern Baptist Convention alone supports 4,750 international missionaries in 127 nations^M
check http://www.sbc.net/default.asp if you don't beleive me. ^M
^M
The Assemblies of God supports 1814 full time missionaries in 176, check out http://ag.org/top/about/current_facts.cfm ^M
^M
Thats just two churches, forgetting the Evangelical Lutherans, Prebyterians, Methodists, and the huge Charismatic revival which all come from America plus many more. ^M
^M
Which is the country which shells out the most aid in the world to other nations? You guessed it America. Look, I'm not saying America is perfect, and God knows this nation needs to be swept by revival, but these are the facts.^M
^M
Basically I do not know why UBF has been so sucessful in Korea, and so miserably stagnent in other counties. I would guess that besides Koreans, there are maybe
100 American full time ministers, and thats over a twenty year period! Koreans excluded, UBF is a revolving door, and many of the people who have joined eventually leave dissolutioned, or even label it a cult. ^M
^M
Why is this so? Are all of these people to blame? Or is there something inherantly wrong with UBF's style which is pushy and controlling.^M
^M
Leif, you are a young person, but don't be so easily deceived. Really pray about this stuff and see what God has to say to you in your heart. ^M
^M
Thanks for listening.

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Replies:

Examples of UBf disinformation -- multiple, 16:03:33 01/09/02 Wed