Examples of UBf disinformation -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 16:03:33 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: Examples of UBf disinformation
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed

Author: private eye
Subject: Examples of UBf disinformation?

Recently there were some postings on the Korean bulletin boards which purported to be answers to Reformers questions. In reality, I want to ask you if they are answers or disinformation? That is answers that give absolutely no information although they pretend to.

First, concerning UBF finances a letter from UBF's Chicago Bank:
***************
Devon Bank
6445 North Western Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60645-5494 (773) 465-2500

Date January 4, 2001

To Whom it may concern:

This is to certify that University Bible Fellowship Overseas who
resides at 6558 N Artesian Ave. Chicago, IL. 60645 opened a Business
Account at Devon Bank, Chicago, Illinois on October 12, 1990.
This account has been maintained in a satisfactory manner from
that date and currently carries a balance of $341,384.44

Sincerely
Devon Bank

______________________
STATE OF ILLINOIS
COUNTY OF COOK

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 4th day of January
2001.
**************

This is only a balance statement for a single account. Of what value is this? Let's see the real books...how much came in....and how it was EXACTLY spent. Let's see the accounting for chapters, individuals, steak dinners, cars, personal expenses, salaries, housing expenses, etc..... There should be a COMPLETE DETAILED accounting of all money that came in and out. Where is it?

Second questions about Samuel Lee's "Ph.D.":
*****************

�~A¦¸ñ I spoke with Chancellor of Bethany Bible College and Seminary
±�~[¾´�~@�~L: Daniel Hong

I spoke with Chancellor of 'Bethany Bible College and Seminary', Dr. H.D. Shuemake, over the phone this afternoon, and inquired about the school and its degree programs. Here are some facts:

[1] The school is licenced from the State and can grant a Ph.D
Its licence is in the web:

Netscape: visit http://www.BETHANYBC.EDU/korea/ala_license.jpg

Microsoft;
visit http://www.bethanybc.edu/korea/ala_license.jpg

Note: In the US, license comes from 'State', not from the Federal government as in Korea.

[2] He also faxed me a letter(license equivalent) from Korea Research Foundation, which specifically
said that it confirmed Bethany Theological Seminary's degree programs are normal(in Korean, Jung Sang). The letter was from Korea Research Foundation(Hanguk Haksul Jin Hung Jae Dan), signed by Chair of Evaluation Department (Hak Sul Pyungga Bu, Bu Jang), Yong Sung Kim, dated Oct.7. 1998. I will post it later. This license-equivalent will be posted in their web, too. I urged him to do so.

[3] Dr. Samuel Lee indeed did get his Ph.D from Bethany Theological Seminary. There was absolutely 'zero'
problem with it.

[4] Finally, the Chancellor said that he was sick and tired of Koreans who are jealous of
collegues and spread false rumors and so on, and I told him that I am going to
shut up their mouths by setting the
record straight, and he said he would
be willing to provide more info, if asked.

For more info:

Visit:

http://www.BETHANYBC.EDU/seminarydegree.htm
http://www.BETHANYBC.EDU/korea/index.htm
*********

This is nothing new, it just shows that Bethany is an unaccredited private correspondence school. This was never in doubt. The question is "What value is a mail order Ph.D. from an unaccredited school worth and how should it be presented? Is it a legitimate credential?

Come on, these don't answer the questions and they are no information at all. Can't you even blow decent smoke in our eyes?

Author: Didymus
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

Hey Private Dick,

Nothing will satisfy you. Lee is not obligated to answer any allegations or requests. I believe he should have turned the other cheek and went on with his business. But, you want to see everything with your eyes. Well, I'll tell you what i once learned. Jesus said, "Because you have seen you have believed. Blessed are those who have believed and have not seen". Get your head out of the bank books and statements - it's just a bunch of paper and man-made mathmatic formulas. Get your eyes on Jesus coming on the clouds.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

Didymus, the Bible teaches us to be a good steward of what God has given us. I believe that also includes making sure that as a Church the money WE donate goes to proper purposes. It should never go into a private purse and spent as one person feels he needs to spend it. That may even have legal implications.

I feel the money God entrusted to me may be going to strange things, so I know I have a right to know. Shouldn't money all be handled in the light? Do you disagree with this? Or is it all one person's money?

Also, what do you think of the ECFA donor's bill of rights? Do you think that's a bunch of boloney? I thought we were supposed to have a "higher standard" and a better way of doing things than plain old American Christians? Shouldn't we even be more accountable and take even more pains to assure that things are done correctly?

While you have your head looking up in the clouds, perhaps someone is in your back pocket?

If you want to give someone your money to play
games with that is fine. I don't!

Author: Sarah Rhee
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

I beg to differ. Samuel Lee is obligated by principle and by law to make financial disclosures if he intends to keep his tax-exempt status for UBF. I have contacted the Illinois State Attorney General and was told that UBF has tax-exempt status as a church and is therefore exempt from filing IRS Form 990 that other nonprofits have to file. However, I was told that if UBF refuses to make disclosures as to how it spends its money, people in UBF or other donors to UBF may file a complaint with the State Attorney General.

Also, when you speak of believing without seeing, you are taking the Bible and using it out of context. That passage you refer to has nothing to do with the issue here, which is biblical stewardship of financial resources and the accountability of a church's leadership to its members. If you believe in the Bible, read what it has to say regarding how even Apostle Paul acted to ensure that he was accountable to others regarding the administration of offerings:

"I thank God,
who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel. What is more, he was CHOSEN BY THE CHURCHES TO ACCOMPANY US AS WE CARRY THE OFFERING, WHICH WE ADMINISTER IN ORDER TO HONOR THE LORD HIMSELF AND TO SHOW OUR EAGERNESS TO HELP. WE WANT TO AVOID ANY CRITICISM OF THE WAY WE ADMINISTER THIS LIBERAL GIFT. FOR WE ARE TAKING PAINS TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT, NOT ONLY IN THE EYES OF THE LORD BUT ALSO IN THE EYES OF MEN."
II Corinthians 8:16-21 (NIV)

So you see, even Paul, an apostle of the Lord himself, was willing to be subject to the scrutiny of men when it came to the use of financial contributions. How much more, then, should Samuel Lee be willing to be accountable financially? Read for yourself the standards of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability and
see how UBF measures up:

http://www.ecfa.org/7standards.asp

Those bank books and statements are a tool put in place by the laws of this land (which we are supposed to keep biblically as long as they do not oppose the laws of God) to ensure that sinful men who throughout the entire history of mankind have fallen to the temptation of unrestrained greed and power will NOT misuse financial resources placed in their care.

If Samuel Lee has done nothing wrong, why should he be afraid to come out into the light with UBF's finances? Every other church I know of discloses to its members exactly how much money was brought in, and exactly how that money was spent. It is unfathomable to me that anyone would donate to an organization that does not make full financial disclosures. Please prayerfully consider whether Samuel Lee has been a good steward of UBF finances, and whether he has been forthwright and has taken pains to "do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes
of men."

Sarah Rhee
sarahpattie72@yahoo.com

Author: ChicagoX
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

It's private EYE, Mr. "Get your eyes on Jesus." Actually, according to the UBF bylaws, I think he is obligated to answer the allegations and requests. Apparently, the bylaws are also just a bunch of paper, and the board of trustees are a bunch of puppets. Don't be another puppet; it's not much fun.

Author: Nightowl
Subject: SL's recent letter and bank statements

If someone got SL's recent letter in ENGLISH, could they post it here?

Author: Nightowl
Subject: Bank statements

Why is only the Devon Bank statement listed here? I've been told that there was also a Foster Bank statement, and the amount in a Foster Bank CD was in excess of $1 million.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

Well said Sarah! Also, where can I get a copy of the UBF by-laws? I want to go over them. I haven't seen it in years. Could somebody post the by-laws if they have them?

Author: Hoot
Subject: UBF by-laws

It may be a major excavation project to dig up the by-laws from the very bottom of a desk drawer. But Missionary James J. Kim did write a review of the by-laws in his 1989 letter. See http://www.reformubf.org/registered -> Bulletin Board -> "Still quiet since 1989?" -> "A Review of the UBF by-laws"

Author: Anonymous2
Subject: Ph.D. idiocy

Accreditation is THE important point. It doesn't matter if the school is licensed by the state or whatever. If a school isn't accedited by a regional accreditation body, then its degrees are worthless. If you got a B.A. from Bethany and tried to apply to a REAL master's or Ph.D. program, you would get rejected, since you don't have a degree from an accredited school. If you have an unaccredited Ph.D., you will never be able to teach at the college or seminary level (at least at a reputable school). Period.

So what's the point of getting an unaccredited Ph.D. if you can't teach with it? It's basically to add those three letters to your name and make yourself sound impressive to ignorant people. Besides that, it's worthless.

By the way, does anyone know what Lee's dissertation topic was? How many references and footnotes were in his dissertation? How extensive was his bibliography? I wonder...

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Bank statements

There are a substantial number of laws governing "not-for-profit organizations." They are indeed obligated to provide financial information on demand with no questions asked. Witholding information is indeed a violation of the law. Check for yourself:

http://www.nonprofits.org/npofaq/16/06.html

http://www.icnl.org/info/summs.html#General%20Legal%20Documents

Also, according to law, the people REALLY responsible for a not-for-profit organization are the boards of directors. They should remember that they face legal responsibility for what is going on. They are the ones who ultimately hold the bag. If you tell the judge in a court of law, "I was just obeying GOD'S SERVANT'S direction!" They will say, "Maybe so but you are the one who will pay the fine, judgment,or jail time" if found guilty of any improprieties.

Author: watcher
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

It's rather funny to see Daniel Hong, a professor at LeHigh and a real Ph.D., bending over backwards to defend the recipient of a mail order Ph.D. I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Author: Hoot
Subject: Re: Bank statements

Here's the statement from Foster Bank:

Foster Bank
Devon Branch:
4001 West Devon Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60646
Tel (773) 736-1300
Fax (773) 736-2081

Date: January 4, 2001

To whom it may concern,

This is to certify that the below named customer has certificate of deposit accounts at Foster Bank, Chicago, Illinois.

Customer name: University Bible Fellowship Overseas
Social Security No: 36-2871402
Address: 6558 N Artesian Ave. Chicago IL 60645
Date Opened: January 29, 1996
Balance: $1,149,464.10

Sincerely yours,

__________________________
Amy M. An

Customer Service Representative

Subscribed and sworn before me on this 4th day of January, 2001

___________________
Public Notary

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Bank statements

Like Ross Perot always says, "The devil is in the DETAILS!"

Let's see the details. I am 99% sure that it is all recorded somewhere. Who paid for the perms and eye-lid operations and all the other operations? And if people were taken to clinics for pregnancy terminations, who paid for that? Let's see who gets tuition, expense money, etc....

We are entitled to know it all by law and before God.

Author: Anon
Subject: Re: Examples of UBF disinformation?

I am not so much concerned about a mail Ph.D, although I personally think it is useless. Rather, I think the question is whether to present it as a legitimate credential without people knowing what it is. As Christians, and as UBF Christians, I thought our standards for ethics should be higher? I just don't think it is right for Christians or Christian leaders to be constantly throwing such very questionable credentials around in peoples' faces as if they were real.

By itself it would be just sad. However, it is evidence of the larger pattern of self-deceit that we have become accustomed to and tolerate so well. We have become accustomed to calling things that are unreal "real" and things that are real "unreal." Let's all wake up and smell the "booleecha" shall we?

That is where I feel the true significance of this is.

Author: Hoot
Subject: Re: Bank statements

Let me try to understand all this even though I'm not an accountant or anything. UBF has about $340,000 in Devon Bank which is used for unspecified business expenses. It has had this account since 1990. It is with this account I guess that buildings close to the Center are bought, planes are chartered under someone else's name to and from MSU, hush money is paid, dinners are paid for, etc. I'm guessing we'll never see a detailed report of expenditures from this Devon Bank account unless they are put under legal duress.

Then there's this CD in Foster Bank that was opened in 1996. Samuel Lee talks about this account in a letter that he sent out with the Devon and Foster Bank statements. He says that he is collecting all the offerings in this account at Foster Bank, and that "only God can spend it." And how is God going to spend it? When the time is right, God is going to buy a Bible House for the Moscow UBF and provide some sort of relief to African missionaries. Maybe it's just me, but doesn't this
just confirm what the Reformers have charged, that Samuel Lee is hoarding our offerings to spend as HE sees fit. Did the Moscow UBF even ask for a Bible House? Shouldn't those who make the offerings have a say in how the big hoard is spent or whether it should be hoarded at all?

Also, are the Devon and Foster Bank accounts the only accounts that Samuel Lee has? Bear in mind, he's been collecting the worldwide offering for decades.

Author: Post-Doc
Subject: Re: Is this an example of disinformation? Daniel Hong's "Ph.D. Defense"

Dr. Daniel Hong offered the following in defense of "American Ph.D.s"

About American Ph.D:

[1] I am Daniel Hong of Lehigh UBF. I met Our Lord Jesus through 1:1
Bible studies at UBF, married a wonderful woman of God at UBF, and am
currently serving Gospel Ministry at Lehigh University(http://www.lehigh.edu),
Pennsylvania. I graduated from Seoul National University in 1979,
received Master's degree from the same school in 1981, came to
the US for Ph.D in 1981 as a student missionary, and received
Ph.D(Boston University) in 1985. I did my two year postdoctoral
work at the Insitute for Theoretical Physics at Santa Barbara,
and one year at Emory University, and came to Lehigh as
Assistant Professor in 1988. Currently I am Professor of Physics
at Lehigh University. My area of research is 'Nonequilibrium Statistical
Mechanics.' I have published about seventy articles in peer
reviewed journals and books such as Phys. Rev. Lett., Phys.
Rev.,
and other European journals. I have produced two Ph.D's and two
are currently under my supervision(4th and 5th year). I served
on numerous Ph.D committees both in Physics and Enigneering
Departments here at Lehigh.
( http://www.lehigh.edu/~dh09/dh09.html )

[2] Regarding the credit transfer: I was accepted as a 'post-master'
student, and all my SNU MS credits (I don't recall exactly, but about
20 credits) were transferred. Hence, I did not take any basic
courses, such as Classical Mechanics, Quantum Mechanics,
Electromagnetism, etc. I only needed to take a few advanced courses
for Ph.D. Credit transfer is a 'local' issue. Each department has a
faculty advisor(for example, I am a senior graduate student advisor,
who conducts an annual progress review of all graduate students each
year at the faculty meeting.) Any advisor, or any graduate student
can petition for the credit transfer to the faculty body of the
department,
and vote is taken. This vote is simply a formal process,
because most faculty accept the recommendation of the graduate student
advisor regarding the credit transfer.

[3] Regarding the qualifier test: Again, this is a local issue. Each
school has a different standard. For example, some schools require
only written exams, but some schools also add 'oral exams.'
Department can even waiver the qualifier requirement if a student(or
a supervisor) petitions, even though this is rare. For example,
suppose a certain faculty moved from one place to other, and took his
graduate student(s), who already passed the qualifier at his former
school. In this case, the new school can waiver the requirement.
This is again a 'local issue.' In 1985, it was found after my thesis
defense that I did not fulfill one requirement for Ph.D, which was to
take the required laboratory course. However, I did my MS in
'experimental physics' at SNU,(which was published
in J. Appl. Phys.)
and thus my supervisor vigorously advocated that that requirement
should be waivered for me, and all the faculty voted on my behalf.

[4] I was once contacted by a person in a seminary, who said that
many of my Ph.D credits in a secular university can be transferred,
if I decide to do Ph.D in theology. In such a case, I only need to
take a few courses, and write a thesis. Of course, I declined this
offer, because I did not consider an additional Ph.D. that
important.

[5] In order to get a Ph.D, a student has to fulfill all the
course requirements, and pass the qualifying(or compresehensive)
exams, and complete the dissertation, which includes the defense.
Throughout his/her Ph.D processes, it is extremely important to
find proper mentors and be guided by them.
Faculty supervisors/committee members have enormous
discretion on granting Ph.D to a candidate. However, all
faculty operate within the boundary of
the established rules,
and do not violate the integrity of Ph.D programs and procedures.
Otherwise, the Ph.D granting institutions are in danger of losing
their licenses because they are regularly reviewed by the proper
overseeing agencies and/or governmnetal bodies.

[6] Honory doctoral degree is a dotoral degree. So, it is
perfectly legitimate to call the recipient a doctor.
For example, Mr. Billy Graham, as I understand,
received honory doctoral degrees. So, it is appropriate to call
him, Dr. Graham, but it is not right for him to designate Ph.D
behind his name(i.e. Billy Graham, Ph.D). As I understand,
Mr. Chung Joo Young received an honory doctoral
degree, and he deserves to be called a doctor.
Dr. Samuel Lee, however, has received both a formal Ph.D degree(Ph.D)
in the US, and an honory doctoral degree(Litt.D) in Korea.

[7] Students can receive Ph.D from different countries such England,
Germany, and Russia, etc. However, the
benefits of American Ph.D
are: (i) The US Universities still produce majority of Ph.D's in
the world, yet the qualities are still excellent. (ii) The opportunities
for Ph.D holders are relatively broad and open in the US both
in indstries and academics. For the next ten years or so,
substantial numbers of American professors will retire and there
will be tremendous need for new faculty in almost every field,
especially in Engineering, Science, Business, and Information
Technology areas. Therefore, it is important for many students
to pursue Ph.Ds in the US to further academic discipliens, to
secure knowledge base for the future, and finally to participate
in World Campus Mission. I personally recommend many Korean
students to consider seriously about getting Ph.Ds in the
US. For any additional information, you may contact
many Ph.D faculty shepherds in USA UBF. Their list will be
posted separetely.

***********

First of all, the "defense" presumptuously implies that Bethany has such a procedure for their Ph.D.s which it doesn't.

Secondly, he says that schools that do not follow correct procedures in granting Ph.Ds. will lose their licenses. What licenses is he refering to? There is no such thing as a "license to grant Ph.Ds." This is patently false. When Ph.D programs become substandard, they lose "accreditation." Any school can grant a Ph.D. without accreditation, it is just not worth anything. Dr. Hong, being a Ph.D. and undoubtedly familiar with accreditation procedures knows this....do you think he is blurring the issue and trying to portray the mail-order Ph.D. from Bethany as part and parcel of regular American accredited Ph.D. programs?

Perhaps Bethany would be a good place to do a "post"-doc...*ouch*!

Author: Deep Throat
Subject: Benoit Account?

James Kim said in his 1989 reform letter:

"Not only is the UBF general fund in your full control, but a lot of funds are diverted to your personal checking account in Benoit, Mississippi. This could be very dangerous, especially if any of our former UBF members have great bitterness against you and report it to the IRS. I don't question your integrity and motivation. But I have great trouble with you putting funds in your own checking account and using them freely."

What about this Benoit account? Where is the info on this account? What is it for? How has it been used? By the way, Benoit is the Mississippi hometown of M. Sarah Barry. What other accounts are there?

Author: A watchful observer
Subject: Re: Ph.D. idiocy

I am relly impressed by your insight in this whole matter about BD Lee's PhD thing. No one says that his so called "PhD" is illegal. What many people are outraged about is that he pretends
to have a some great PHD from a a great university while any one can get a PhD from his school very easily because his PhD is hollow. For example, Sam Wahbeh of Seatle
*There are two UBF hcapter in Seatle, Washington, currently. The other chapter of Seattle led by M. Joshua Lee is a reformed UBF chapter. Do you know that 20 chapters among 30 japanese chapters have decided to join reform? People are working hard for reform.) Sam Wahbeh, who was not known as a great scholar (I do not mean to be sarcastic. I just want to say that it does not take a genius to get aPhD easily from bethany), could get a PhD from Bethany theological Seminary somewhere around 8 to 14 months by correspondence. In Samuel Lee's case, of course, he did not take a course in person. I do not think that he even took correspondence like Sam
Wahbeh. What Samuel Lee did was to pay money, convert his Romans study into a kind of dissertation with the help of a scholar and other editors. What I remember is that his Romans was academically so poor at that time.
My seminary professor friend said to me, "Why did he seek such a worthless degree from such a school? It could have been better for him to remain as a non-PhD. In that case, people could have thounght, "He worked hard for the Lord. So he did not have a cahnce to get a PhD." In fact, Samuel Lee used to boast, saying, "I had a chance to go to USA and get a PhD. But I sacrificed it for the lord."
Why then did Samuel lee get such a worthless PhD and pretend he is a great PhD? Does he do such a thing in vanity? No! Remember he is very calculative. His real motive is in getting rid of non-PhD contenders and in installing his son as his successor because his son got a PhD with various help. His son is young in experience and ability compared to other possible contenders to his position.
One of the best ways to get rid of host of contenders is to say, "Without a PhD, one cannot be my successor." This is the reason why he praises PhDs all of sudden in certain point. He also pursuaded or pushed John Jun, the director of Korea, to get a Bethany class PhD (It is not a worthy one. You know some one can get a PhD by getting a Pizza Hut Degree). Samuel Lee thought that, by advertising his Bethany Class PhD, he silenced some Korean staff shepherds who were critical about his attempt to install his son as his successor and establish Lee regime or LeeBF (There is no "You" in UBF. There is only Lee). So he confidently pushed korean staff shepherds in internet and criticized them whole sale. That angereed korean staff shepherds and a reform movement was sparked though reform desires have been long builing up. A watchful eye.

Author: A Watchful Observer II
Subject: Re: Ph.D. idiocy

I am not saying that Samuel Lee worked hard for the Lord. It seems to me that he worked hard for the Lord in th bgeginning, but later he worked mainly for himself, his son and Lee family as King Saul did.

About UBF finance, please see www.reformubf.org (Go to Bulletinboard's "Still quiet since 1989." Then go to "15 issues raised by Korean reformers"). I have some informations about UBF finance. First, it has been known that Korea UBF has sent 4.5 million dollars to Chicago UBF the World mission headqarters some last 23 years. My buisiness friend says that such large sum of money could have grwon to 45 million dollars in such a long period of time. Also Chicago UBF has collected so much money not just from korea but from USA, Germany, Canada and all over the world. If my memory is correct, Samuel Lee boasted that over 100,000 dollars (may be 200,000 dollars)were collected for one christmas in Chicago alone. Ius it possible? Yes, many board of directors, staff shepherds, fellowship leaders and
others have to offer 2,ooo dollard per person. Some offer 5,000 dollars or more. He made a list about who offered how much and then circulated it to leaders. those who could not offer much were often put under training and punishment. Second, when maria Ahn became a treasurere after James j. Kim asserted that Missionary Grace lee, missionary Samuel lee's wife, should not remain as a treasurer in 1989, Maria Ahn found that all numberws in record book was zero, zero, zero, zero,........ Who knows where did all the money go? Samule Lee's financial irregularities have been a source of bitter grievances and reform topics of reformers since 1976. But Samuel lee has never changed his financial practices. Why does he risk so many things and yet continue his bogus financial practices? The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evils. Samuel Lee used to say, "When one has money, people hang around." He thinks that the best way to hold onto power is grabbing money. Sadam Hussein maintains hi spower by
funneling his illegal fortunes itno the hands of his cronies. Samuel lee is handing out large sum of money into the hands of soem of USA UBF directors and even soem Canadian directors and other national directors or target leaders. It is Mafia style of money. It is a outraged thing that people's offering made by sweat and blood is being used to buy Samuel lee's cronies' loyalty for him. Reformers are crying for a reform. A USA director received moeny both from his own chapter and secretly from Samuel Lee. Please speak out!
Inform each other please. Many are not aware of what is really going on. Until UBF people begin to speak out in websites, most of informations were cutt off from them and often disinformations were imposed upon them by samuel Lee and his well paid cronies. But people began to speak out just few weeks ago. May God reform UBF to be restored to her original beautiful states! Amen.

Author: A Watchful eye
Subject: Re: Ph.D. idiocy

(Correction). not 2,000 dollars per person but large sum of money like 2,000 dollar per person. Some offer more. Others offer less. I am not saying that offering large sum is not good. What I am saying is that making a list and showing it to people in order to push them psycologically is wrong.That can be a terrible manipulation.

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Is World Mission conquest? -- Libertador, 16:05:54 01/09/02 Wed