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AS IRON SHARPENS IRON, SO ONE MAN SHARPENS ANOTHER.
Welcome Cool Hombres!
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Subject: polygamy


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 08:48:19 01/21/03 Tue

Response to Konopka's thoughts on having polygamy today:

I think unbelievably the answer might be no since David was a man after God's own heart and God was said to have loved Solomon.

The question might be then, does the NT change the old polygamy ways? Adam brought up the requirement for a deacon, so here's my argument, although I admit it is weak. Paul clearly says that eating meat sacrificed to idols is ok if your conscience is ok with it. However, he says that if eating this meat bothers your "brother" or fellow believer then you shouldn't do it. So my argument is then that there is potentially no way that polygamy would be conscience free and at the very least not bother anyone else.

Yeager

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Subject: To Wed


Author:
T.
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Date Posted: 21:06:35 01/20/03 Mon

I found it a nice reminder that it is God himself who chose the metaphor of Christ's relationship to us as that of husband and wife. So it reminds me that my sometimes tumultous marriage simply matches my sometimes tumultuous relationship with Christ: and Christ, since before time, knew it would be so and still found it an apt metaphor. Part of the sweetness, in both relationships, comes from the cost of getting there.

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Subject: PS


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 16:58:28 01/19/03 Sun

Both Yeager's and Frizzell's posting remind me that marriage is problematic. It is a tough issue. It seems to me that we cannot overlook the differences of each culture's approach to marriage. I thought Frizzell's posting reminds us of our failure to understand marriage. And Yeager, highlighting the issue of polygamy in scripture, illustrates the contingency of our own conceptions.

My commentary tries to put marriage in a pretty good light. But the Bible is also pretty tough on marriage. "Unless someone HATE his father and mother....wife and children... they cannot be my disciple." (Jesus talking) Paul also talks about how someone who is single is better suited to do the God's work. Tough words, from tough men.

I am pretty confused about all of this. I think we can give a definitive answer about what marriage is according to our tradition, but it still remains to put this answer to all the troubling issues that arise.

In my state of Massachussets the issue of gay marriage was a big part of the political race for governer. Now, marriage is an issue that the "progressives" are fighting about. They say that it is a religious institution that the government is forcing upon people through taxed benefits, etc. Chad brought this up. Bush's proposed reform of the welfare system clearly favors the married. What would you say to someone who is not religious, but is required to be married to get government support? Why do they need to adopt this religious institution?

That is the one side. The ironic other side is that these same progressives find themselves fighting for gay marriage. If a heterosexual couple has the right to get married, why not the homosexual couple? So the progressive movement is in this awkward position of fighting against marriage and fighting for it in the case of gay rights. Wierd, huh?

Just a thought about the polygamy issue...What if we all of a sudden lived in a culture of polygamy. Is there anything in scripture that would prevent us from being Christian polygamists? Okay, deacons are out. They have to be the husband (dare I say wife) of one woman (man). Anything else that you can think of?

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Subject: "I'll feel the heat from your wedding ring" Brian Funk


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 19:57:47 01/15/03 Wed

What is marriage? Bold question. I have been married as long as Adam (actually one week longer but who is counting). And, like he, have thought about it often. I don't know that I can adequately define marriage but I would like to outline a few perceptions of marriage.

First, marriage as a mandate. The capstone of the twenties. The view predominantly, although not stereotypically, of midwestern, protestant churchgoers. You graduate from high school, you graduate from college, and shortly thereafter; marriage. To do otherwise requires some sort of explanation. Acceptable explanations might be a considered entrance to the mission field, travelling the world (temporarily), or further education. "I just don't want to, or I just can't find someone," would probably not find its way into the orthodox cannon of single excuses among your parents, your parents friends, your extended family etc. Or it may produce a full front offensive to find a mate for you. Over thanksgiving I eveasdropped on a conversation between two unmarried twentysomethings in my extended family. They both felt that they had nothing to offer at the holidays because they did not have child, spouse, or even a prospect. I don't know where marriage as a mandate came from but its here.

Second, marriage as archaic. Marriage is an antiquated institution that impedes personal development and freedom. It is repressive, prehistoric, and in need of revision if it is to be saved. I see this coming from the media centers and specifically, although not stereotypically, from the homosexual community and the feminist movement. There are reasons for the perceptions of these two groups. Same sex domestic partners cannot be co-dependents on health insurance like spouses can, they cannont transfer assets to their partners upon their death through a marital trust like married people can, and visiting hours are limited to domestic partners in hospitals. Employers tend to be more sensitive to time needed off to care for a sick spouse or child. A single women may not get the same leniency. There are tax benefits available to married people that are not available to those who have chosen to remain single or those who co-habitate in same sex relationships. Thus, it is said, in a progressive society, a regressive office is rewarded.

Third, and for my money, marriage as a crucifixion. The text referenced often by dogmatic Christian man is Ephesians 5:22-24

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

At this point the Bible is ceremoniously closed, the wives all bow in submission, the men gloat, and the feminists fume. But, if we read on: Ephesians 5:25

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

Is it safe to say that the husband is the head of the wife only in so far as he is to her what Christ is to the church? Further, is it safe to say that the marriage that most closely resembles God's divine plan is the marriage that most closely resembles a crucifixion? If so, husbands should not gloat, wives should not mumble in submission, and feminists should not begrudge the male sex for the charge they have been given. Husbands have been left holding the bag.

Frizzell


*The views expressed in this commentary are not necessarily the views of Coolhombres or its affiliates. All rights reserved.

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Subject: Marriage


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 11:56:59 01/14/03 Tue

I think Adam's topic of marriage could unleash the proverbial "can of worms". There are so many ideas and topics that I thought about while reading his commentary. His idea on Polygamy brought the story of King Solomon to mind. Was he blessed or cursed with regard to having many wives? Also, the many lessons and difficulties that God wants us to overcome with regard to marriage and our relationships. The fact that God designed us so differently in terms of fulfillment seems interesting as well. But probably what I thought about most was while reading the commentary, interestingly enough, was the heated debate that exists(ed) on the book of Song of Songs. It is hard for me to believe that it wasn't until the 19th century that this book was first looked at as possibly not allegorical. It just reminded me that marriage, and particularly sex, is part of God's plan and not just for procreation.

Yeager

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Subject: Cool (tough) guy Doug Shrieve


Author:
RDW
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Date Posted: 21:20:44 12/29/02 Sun

While I do not have any well thought out musings to share with the cool hombres, I did come across the attached recent article from the best small-town newspaper in the country, The Muncie Star Press.

As you read this article about one of the nastiest NBA players today, remember Doug Shrieve is even nastier and stood up to this punk while attending good old MCHS. Now that's what I call a cool hombre!!

Bonzi should channel energy into his hometown
DOUG ZALESKI
dzaleski@thestarpress.com
Bonzi Wells has done more to tarnish his reputation in just four-plus seasons in the NBA than the majority of misfits do in a career.

People here know what he did as a high school and college standout to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately, his unruliness has accelerated as a professional player with the Portland Trail Blazers.

On Nov. 9, Wells spit in the face of San Antonio's Danny Ferry during a game and was suspended one game.

On Dec. 24, Wells was suspended two games for fighting with Golden State's Chris Mills at the end of a game. After the game, Mills tried to hunt down Wells in the Blazers' locker room and on their team bus. Some players speculated Mills might have been carrying a gun.

Mills, who was suspended three games, had harsh words for Wells. "I think Bonzi Wells is a straight punk, with a capital P," Mills said.

Perhaps even more troubling, Wells has been accused by NBA players of making racial taunts toward white players.

Ferry told writers Wells called him a "[blanking] honkie" during games dating to last season.

In an exhibition game this season, Golden State's Troy Murphy said Wells called him a "cracker" - a derogatory term for whites.

Last April, Dallas guard Nick Van Excel, a black, said Wells referred to the Mavericks as "a bunch of soft-assed white boys."

The totality of Wells's actions and verbal flares is beginning to accumulate like sand in Dubai. What little credibility he might have had with the majority of fans in his hometown has all but vanished.

Wells and his inner circle of friends and family, of course, don't see it. If they do, they refuse to acknowledge it. But the 99.5 percent of the other people in Muncie can see what is happening.

Wells is becoming a laughingstock in his hometown. Mention the name Bonzi Wells in Muncie and you're likely to get one of these reactions: rolling of the eyes, shaking of the head, pitying laughter.

Can he reverse those feelings? Perhaps.

In a column I wrote last month, I noted Wells's new contract with the Blazers would pay him $21 million during the next 3 years. I got a call the that day from his mother, who wanted to correct me. She said the deal was worth $24 million.

Good enough. Here's a plan for Wells to give something back to the people in his hometown, the same place where he makes his offseason home.

Bonzi's mother said her son had done a lot of good things, such as buying basketball shoes for the Central and Ball State teams and staging a summer basketball clinic for kids. Wells recently even contributed $250 to The Star Press Children's Charities.

That's all well and good, but he has the wherewithal to do much more. He has the ability to better the quality of life for many kids in his hometown.

It's not uncommon for well-paid athletes to give something back.

NBA player Steve Smith, a former teammate of Wells in Portland, donated $2.5 million to his alma mater. The gift, given in memory of Smith's mother, was used for an academic center to help student-athletes at Michigan State. The money also funded a scholarship at Smith's high school to help deserving students who want to attend Michigan State.

NFL player Warrick Dunn has established a program to help single mothers become homeowners. Dunn pays $5,000 to $6,000 for down payments on the homes and works with local businesses to supply such necessities as appliances, dishes, linens, and lawn and garden equipment. To date, Dunn has helped more than 2 dozen single mothers acquire homes they otherwise could not afford.

Those athletes are making a difference. Instead of being called "a punk with a capital P" by their peers, they are improving the quality of life in their home areas.

So here's my suggestion to Wells. He should take the $24 million his mom says he's earning and pledge $1 million of it toward making Muncie, his home, a better place for the kids who live here.

Already this season, Wells has squandered $210,000 in salary by being suspended three games. Just threw it out the window because he acted like a clown.

It would be nice to see Bonzi do the right thing for once. How about committing $1 million to the kids - black, white, orange, whatever - of Muncie? Couldn't the YMCA, the Boys' and Girls' Club, and any number of other agencies and programs greatly benefit from that kind of philanthropy?

It's time for Wells to reshape his image instead of continually bringing shame upon himself.

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Subject: I Wonder Why


Author:
Shrieve
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Date Posted: 08:23:47 12/09/02 Mon

Larry Thanks for writing the commentary. It took a lot of guts to join
the coolhombres in the first place. I respect and enjoy your
willingness to share.

In your commentary you brought up a desire of mine. Joy is something
that I would like more of. The problem is my decisions are made with
the goal of fulfilling both well-thought and impulsive desires before
considering others. Because of this, joy is short lived.

Because I am consistently trying to bring joy into my life, I almost
always forget about the unassuming nature. It is this characteristic
that allows joy to be consistently lived. It is the unassuming nature
that will yield joy in struggles and in good times.

Consider your friend at work. I don?t know his situation, but at one
time he loved his wife. He did, or he would not have made a public
pledge to love her. He may be in the right to leave her, like I said, I
don?t know. But by taking on an unassuming nature he could love his wife
today. Taking this on daily, he could begin to find joy in her in an
increasing way. Imagine the excitement of joy restored!

I couldn?t agree with you more when you wrote that people just seem to
stay joyless. I am one of them until I take on the unassuming nature.
This nature that is so unassuming is humility. Unfortunately we don?t
seem to get it. It is contradictory to just about every desire we hang
on to.

Pride eventually will result in disgrace. I personally was reminded of
this three months ago. Visibly, I was hard towards a family member. I
won?t go into details, but what she had done will effect her for the
rest of her life and others (including me) as well. I held a grudge for
eight months. My view of her was lowered. For me to take on the
unassuming nature I had to be broken, repent to God, and ask for my sister?s
forgiveness. This was a humiliating experience.

Joy is the result of it. I now have a caring desire to serve my
sister. I also am enjoying being an uncle. People would tell me that my
attitude would change once the child was born. Perhaps they were right.
Seeing a child is precious. However, God decided to change me before
the birth of my niece. I still struggle with some things; but overall,
joy has replaced my hardness towards my sister.

Taking on this unassuming nature is only made possible by a big God
humbling himself to be a little baby. The message that this baby brought,
and eventually died for is contradictory to anything that
self-motivated reason will justify.

Friends, ask to be humbled. Because of Christ, joy will be complete.
See John 16:24. This is a detail that is increasingly becoming
important to me.

ds

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Subject: the main thing


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 14:25:18 11/15/02 Fri

Tucker, thanks for your lucid and provocative posting. I have been thinking about it for a few days now...I found myself very simpathetic to what I think your saying. We need to see Christianity for how it affects our lives. If we fail to live up to the checklist or "scripts" that we have adopted, we have to realize that that is not the point and only leads to an inauthentic or "phony" form of spirituality. The point is to be an authentic/real person that has a heart to do the right thing. The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

Mary Baker Eddy encourages us to stick to the spirit of the text, because the details can be unreliable, and the details are not essential to an encounter with God. The devil is in the details, so to speak. Who cares about whether or not every preposition in the bible is the literal translation, right? To get caught up in with horse blinders on makes us miss the forest for the trees.

The forest is how the spirit can use scripture to transform our lives "in and through and around us". This is what is exciting about the gospel, the way it can practically help us live. The power of a spirit filled life that makes all things new. I agree, some parables can get a little crusty and moldy, but hopefully with the help of the spirit, they can be illumined in a fresh way.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I have a tendency to get caught up in the minusia (spelling?).

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[> Subject: Re: the main thing


Author:
Tucker
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Date Posted: 17:32:14 11/17/02 Sun

>Tucker, thanks for your lucid and provocative posting.
> I have been thinking about it for a few days now...I
>found myself very simpathetic to what I think your
>saying. We need to see Christianity for how it
>affects our lives. If we fail to live up to the
>checklist or "scripts" that we have adopted, we have
>to realize that that is not the point and only leads
>to an inauthentic or "phony" form of spirituality.
>The point is to be an authentic/real person that has a
>heart to do the right thing. The main thing is to
>keep the main thing the main thing.
>
>Mary Baker Eddy encourages us to stick to the spirit
>of the text, because the details can be unreliable,
>and the details are not essential to an encounter with
>God. The devil is in the details, so to speak. Who
>cares about whether or not every preposition in the
>bible is the literal translation, right? To get
>caught up in with horse blinders on makes us miss the
>forest for the trees.
>
>The forest is how the spirit can use scripture to
>transform our lives "in and through and around us".
>This is what is exciting about the gospel, the way it
>can practically help us live. The power of a spirit
>filled life that makes all things new. I agree, some
>parables can get a little crusty and moldy, but
>hopefully with the help of the spirit, they can be
>illumined in a fresh way.
>
>Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I have a tendency
>to get caught up in the minusia (spelling?).

Adam, I don't believe I could have worded it any better than yourself. Thanks. Being authentic, being real are good qualities; both for the individual who works at being so and for those around him. Oh yes, I too am familiar with 'minutiae.' At times it can be a big stumbling block.

Tucker

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Subject: New Christian?


Author:
Tucker
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Date Posted: 20:17:07 11/12/02 Tue

Nice commentary, Yeager. I suppose there are principles to follow to be a Christian and I guess we would go to the bible to find them out. Some would say they would be synonymous with a checklist so to speak but I won’t argue the point. I get so tired of splitting hairs sometime, you know, calling it this, calling it that, whatever. I don’t know if I am a good Christian, a bad one, or even one at all. I see no need to classify/label myself but there is that Golden Rule which we learned in first grade so long ago. We have the Ten Commandments. I have the rudimentary teachings of my good parents which I don’t think were all that shabby. Be good, you wish to be nice, well, then be nice. If you slip up it would seem to be the right thing to avert a repeat episode. I could add other things to this list but others must know these things, right? (It’s important for me to know my weak areas and that I do.) I can’t get all involved in this near perfect little script which some have a desire to. Perhaps I am just plain sloppy. Some people can get phony, or they get all consumed with memorizing this or that, that before they know it they’ve forgotten how to be just a regular likeable sort. I just don’t see to operate that way.
The literal translation of the bible? Uh-oh. I am one of those who does not believe in the literal translation of every word in the good book, nope. It’s seems to be those parables which have done it for me and they leave much to be desired. I am not a Christian Scientist but Mary Baker Eddy wrote long ago on this subject: ‘She affirmed that the Scriptures cannot properly be interpreted in a literal way. The truths they teach must be spiritually discerned, before their message can be borne fully to our minds and hearts. That there is a dual meaning to every biblical passage, the most eminent minds have concluded; and to get at the highest, or metaphysical, it is necessary rightly to read what the inspired writers left for our spiritual instruction. The literal rendering of the Scriptures makes them nothing valuable, but often is the foundation of unbelief and hopelessness. The metaphysical rendering is health and peace and hope for all. The literal or material reading is the reading of the carnal mind, which is enmity toward God, Spirit.’ And so there’s another slant. I think what jumped out at me when I read that long ago were the words unbelief, hopelessness, and I should like to add personally, discouragement. The parables which I have read seem to have no application in the natural world, real life. However, if I were to listen to a minister affirm things like I am surrounded by the love and peace of God, or perhaps, no habit bursts on to the consciousness fully grown, or perhaps, you cannot control what comes to you but you can control what doesn’t stay, well then, I can get very excited, very enthused. Words such as these when incorporated in to prayer have a real place, they have a real application. They can improve one’s life, expand the consciousness, and with God’s spirit “in me through me and around me” one can find themselves equipped with all the components and parts to overcome obstacles, disappointments, and conversely, to be oh so grateful for our life.
Has it not been said that all journeys start with one step? Well, since people are not going to agree on the subject of the bible, religion, spirituality, then maybe they “should pick the one” they feel comfortable with and run with it to at least start somewhere. If there is one rule book for life could there not be one thousand and one? Well, sort of...
Tucker

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Subject: New Christian or New Christianity


Author:
T
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Date Posted: 20:32:46 11/11/02 Mon

I really like Adam's "confuse and compel." As long as it is not we who end up confused. And Yeager is right when he implies that Taylor-like American evangelicalism needs some reshaping.(Forgive me if that is not what you meant.) But I think a problem is created when we start reshaping so much and in such a reactionary way that we do not compel but are compelled by the world.
Many coolguys, including myself, have expressed on this website a sort of distaste for the sappy christianity often found in Taylor students. Understandable enough. But did coolguys ever take that type of faith so seriously as to have it leave such a bad taste in the mouth? I guess what I mean is, shouldn't that sentimental or legalistic stuff we bumped into occasionally in college be easily shrugged off with a dose of grace? Or even laughed off as inconsequential? This is not a defense of Taylor nor of immature faith but I'm saying that if we are to find a satisfying answer to the question, "What should a new christian look like?" we need to do more than just say what it DOESNT look like. And yet it needs to include that which hasn't yet been in our experience. Some of that can probably be found by looking to the exciting changes and mutations that are going on in the chritian faith globally. Its an exciting time in history for an american christian to start with "Sola Scriptura" but then look around the world to see how the christian faith is being manifested in different cultures. And this "new" christianity does look alot like a return to "old" christianity. A good thing, I think.

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Subject: THE HEART CHANGER


Author:
ds
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Date Posted: 05:03:13 11/01/02 Fri

JY you’re back! I love to read your thoughts on coolhombres.com. It reminds me of Buck and Captain Steele in how they relied on Dr. Benjuda to write his teachings on-line to better equip the Tribulation Force.

New Christian? If I want to see things for what they really are my heart needs to be continuously examined. No one is doing is doing it right, save Christ alone. Conditioning of the heart is the focal point of Christianity. (See Psalm 27:8) It is what Christ has called the church (universal) to do. Baptist, Methodist, Non Denominational, Greek Orthodox, Evangelical Frees, Vineyard People, Presbyterians, we are all recovering Pharisees. In my own heart I am judgmental and far worse than I dare want to know. On the flip side though, because of Christ I am far more loved that I can imagine.

I cannot change a man’s heart, but Christ will not loose any of His (See parable of the lost sheep). It is a privilege for us to be part of the great commission. Like anything else we need to ask for opportunities, and then be ready to be obedient in sharing our faith. It is a good and challenging reminder to live our lives in obedience for sharing Christ with others.

Great rulers of the past knew God because of example (See Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Jacob, and David). These guys had a heart for God. How amazing would it be if your manager, co-workers, or dean put out an office or faculty wide email saying “the God of the Cool Hombres is the one and only God.” He knows hearts. He changes hearts. This is my comfort.

ds

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Subject: new christian


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 23:45:35 10/30/02 Wed

Yeager,

Thanks for your commentary. Let me give you my idea of a new Christian, taking for granted the question of whether or not we need a new model...which itself is a big question. And maybe the new look could be a return to the original look in our times. Sola Scriptura.

Some have said that the current model is too dependant on the scientific enterprise that has enjoyed so much prosperity in the last century. Science tends to codify, predict, manipulate, test, organize, calculate, etc. How has this model been applied to Christianity? If I follow these rules or these steps, then I am a good Christian, I will be happy, and live a fulfilling life. Yeager, you referenced this in your commentary. The science of faith.

Now I think science is great in certain places. For instance, the triple blade razor is a scientific discover that I am most grateful. But maybe faith is not the proper place for science. Maybe instead of the scientific model, we could look to the aesthetic model. Maybe faith is more like art, than it is like science. An aesthetics of faith.

This is tricky business. All hell could break loose. Scientific Christianity tells us not to be risky, we must be able to predict.

Let me describe what I mean by the art of faith. It might look like a form of belief that is preoccupied with beauty. That someone who is a good Christian lives a life that is stylized in such a way that it is attractive and seductive. A life that has intensity that goes from ecstatic highs to horrifying lows...the beautiful and the sublime...all the while trying to bring pleasure to God. Instead of having a goal of being clear and distinct, we confuse and compel. After all, Jesus's parables weren't exactly systematic theology.

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Subject: cigarettes and coffee


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 07:14:30 07/11/02 Thu

"Misery is the river of the world" - Tom Waits

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[> Subject: Re: cigarettes and coffee


Author:
jb
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Date Posted: 07:28:17 08/14/02 Wed

>"Misery is the river of the world" - Tom Waits

"And you better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone"- Bob Dylan

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[> Subject: Re: cigarettes and coffee


Author:
jeremy
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Date Posted: 07:38:31 08/14/02 Wed

if anyone has adam's email could you send it to me..jburnworth@yahoo.com.
thanks.

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Subject: Jesus and Billy Graham


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 07:23:26 06/25/02 Tue

What is evangelicalism? Who was Jesus? At what point are these two compatible? How are they different? Chad, your commentary is something that is near and dear to where I am at right now. In general, I too find myself looking for alternative forms of how the gospel can be proclaimed. I feel like my experience in the evangelical model has been exhausted.

Evangelicalism is a very recent and localized phenomenon. I think it is an American movement that really did not come into its own until the last, say, century. With the advent of fundamentalism (earlier) and its lack of ability to form a spirituality, the evangelical model served as a supplement. In short, it was the answer to the question, what does it mean to be spiritual? The answer: go witness to people. I think this project was not really perfected and didn't even really come into its own until Billy Graham. He had such success that this form of piety caught on like a wildfire all throughout the Americas.

So back to my earlier questions posed in a different way, what does Jesus have in common with Billy Graham? At the very least the Billy Graham style has understood the vitality and urgency of the gospel. This is something that we all need to learn from.

To point out one difference between the two that I think matches up with Chad's points. It seems like Jesus drew people to himself. The sense is that he was this enigmatic character that intrigued people. This drew a crowd. He also didn't seem like as much of deal closer. Sometimes, he tried to confuse the issue, i.e. parables.

The tendency is to interpret Jesus through our own historical consciousness, through the evangelical model. I think when we look at the broader historical tradition of the church we see other interpretations that can provide a broader, fuller description of this "interesting" person, to say the least.

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Subject: perfect - not pleasing


Author:
yeager
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Date Posted: 06:38:37 06/17/02 Mon

Bill:

Great commentary, I believe one of the best. The first thought that came to mind was the issue of being perfect, not necessarily pleasing. It seemed like you had the slant that if Jesus was perfect, he would therefore be the best crowd pleaser, best friend, ect... And I believe that.

However, I am reminded of several instances when giving the right advice does not necessarily produce the best response. Even when we are flawless as a friend (in advice), we still may not be appreciated or liked. The evidence is actually Jesus himself. When he responded to the Pharisees with the perfect response, He did not receive the best response from them. So my thought is that we should definately strive for perfection (with Jesus being our best model for that) but don't expect the perfect responses back.

yeager

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Subject: enjoyment nearing


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 14:55:19 05/29/02 Wed

Enjoyment nearing....a metaphor for the afterlife. There are those moments in life when you stop and grin because your desire is awakened for what it was made for. This is grace. This is joy. He leads us beside quiet waters; waters not unlike Tippy Lake in Indiana. And it is there that He whispers to us through the mist rising off the water. The whisper doesn't tell us anything, but ushers us into the mystery of the gospel. God created the world and called it good. Through the sin of one man, all of creation was cursed. Through the righteousness of the second Adam, the world was redeemed. And when he comes again, all things will be new. It is through beauty that we see the enigma of this story and our hearts are called up into it. Doug, I pray that these moments continue as our faith endures.

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Subject: Heaven


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 11:26:00 05/29/02 Wed

DS:

Great commentary. I loved it. I think about heaven sometimes and I think it is interesting to think of heaven in both a positive and a negative way. For instance: a negative way to look at it would be to think of current pain and hardships in your life and then to remind yourself of what Revelation says of heaven, where God will wipe away every tear and there will be no more pain.

It also can be thought of in a positive way (probably the ideal) in that you can think of all the great things that will be there. Doug and I have talked about going over to hang out at his mansion to relax on the nearest leather coach and shoot the bull. But seriously it is interesting to think of all the wonderful things that will be in heaven. Who knows if it will allude to the same experience that Doug has going to his lake house. We know we will be able to be with God all the time, we know everything is beautiful complete with pearl gates, gold roads, and every other precious jem imaginable. We also know that we will have a sweet 'crib'. But who knows what else we will be able to do. I do know this, that Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "today, you will be with me in Paradise". So we know for Jesus to say that it must be sweet.

Yeager

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Subject: pride


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 09:56:00 05/17/02 Fri

T, your commentary was very interesting and I have been thinking about it for a couple days...I have been searching my own life for the ways in which I struggle with a proper view of my achievements. I guess, for me, it is a matter of perspective. I find myself in a situation where I am not doing things better than people around me. In every class I have, there is always several people who are sharper and smarter than I am. There are many circumstances where I end up feeling like a major looser. Another situation....I have some friends that I see on a regular basis. Some of them are going through some pretty tough stuff. Every time I get together with them, I find myself trying to speak into their lives in a meaningful way. It never really works and I feel pretty inadequate as a friend. Another situation....marriage. Now, I think that most of us who have been married for any degree of time know that we all end up dropping the ball sooner or later. There are times when I feel like I have sabatoged any good thing that we had going.

On the other hand, there are those moments when I reflect back on where I am and feel satisfied. I used to feel this more often than I do now. These moments seem like they are becoming more and more fleeting.

I guess one of the issues is trying to have a proper view of yourself that doesn't err on the side of pride or lack of self-esteem (for lack of a better term). How do we get a real picture of ourselves? On place is obviously scripture. It can mirror back to us who we are. The image that I get reflected back to me is one that is a mixture of dignity and depravity, or like someone said, a glorious ruin. You are right T, there is a paradox there.

Another great place to get this realistic picture of ourselves is through other people. Unfortunately, this does not usually happen in everyday interactions. I think we have to be intentional about it by asking a simple question to those people we are close to: What is it like to be in a classroom with me? What is it like to be my friend? What is it like to be my wife? Whoa. I think it takes a lot of courage to do this and leave it totally open ended, not trying to lead the response in any direction. Maybe even ask the question and let them have a couple days to think about it.

I have to be honest, I have not done this in a long time. I would be scared to think what Erica would say. We all should try it sometime.

Thanks for bringing this issue up T. Self knowledge that is accurate is a big problem. I think that many of the great people in history have dealt with it.

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Subject: The Pride Comment


Author:
Larry Tucker
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Date Posted: 19:22:01 05/16/02 Thu

I'm not much at posting as somehow I got it stuck in my craw that one should be well versed in quoting scripture. Well, let me tell you that no one here would care to wait for this fellow as we'd all die of starvation! Okay, with the foolish comment out of the way I read Mr. Linehan's commentary. Now, I could have misread it, surely, but I am not going to click on the back arrow to read it a third time.
Feeling bad about experiencing sporadic pride? Oh gosh, no, there's nothing wrong with feeling some pride in an accomplishment whether it be raising our family, or raising no family, a home project, a hard day's work, the list is endless. I experience it, probably more often than I realize and I think it can be healthy. Some go overboard I suppose and it transcends into one of these push-push shove-shove type of things such as people with large egos, but that's not me. Anyway, people with large egos are a turnoff, suspicious, and as I like to say, toxic. I could come up with other positives about the healthy sides of pride but I shall spare everyone a laundry list. Just one though, huh?: I never experience pride -nor do I care to- as it relates to material acquisitions. The latter mean very little to me, they do not sustain me. They are but things which could be considered a by-product of spiritual growth of which I have made a conscious decision to pursue. And so it is that my insides feel okay, I like myself, I take credit for having the initiative to think the way I do, and I am real proud of that. That is worth more to me than an 8 digit paycheck.
Larry

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Subject: faith, hope, love


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 19:01:59 05/07/02 Tue

Chad and Jon, your postings are cool. Yeager, you touched on something that I think is crucial to this whole process of responding to suffering, to life. That is faith. Faith, hope, and love. These are so interrelated and even overlap with one another. In my life today, these three words define what Christianity is. The hoping process can only build upon faith. Faith in what God has done in the past. God reveals himself as true and loving. We remember this as true, and have faith. Faith is of the past. Our hope is based in this faith in God's character. It transforms the past into the possible future. It is a confidence in the memory of God's character and an anticipation for the way he will reveal himself again. Faith, rooted in the past. Hope, a futural anticipation. Love emerges in this intertwining as the present. We experience God's love in the moment where memory meets the possible. Love is the greatest of these, but needs faith and hope to exist.

Chad, you touched on the possible. I believe that we as humans are the kind of thing that always is projecting ourselves into the future. We are always asking, what next? What will I do after I am done with this posting. What will I do tommorrow? In this sense, we are always disclosive of our world through projecting possibilities. Suffering corners us. I reduces those posibilities until we say what my friend said, I don't have anything left. I have run out of options.

Our life depends upon the possible. It depends on hope. That is the kind of thing we are.

ak

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Subject: The Great Equalizer


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 18:13:54 05/07/02 Tue

I think it's safe to say that AK found the sweet spot again. Well done.

I like the language Adam used, particularly the word possibility. When I suffer the first thing I do is consider the options. I think most people do. What is the best way to alleviate my suffering? What is the quickest way to alleviate my suffering? Most of the energy expressed by a sufferer is directed at resolve. Now, this isn't all bad, but, most significant problems that cause significant suffering are not easily and/or quickly eliminated. Meanwhile we must continue living, we must continue being. Enter perseverance. As Adam said we persevere or we quit and begin the process of atrition. I know people who quit, I know people who perpetually quit. The self medicate or they burden everyone with their problems constantly. Consequently the never progress to the next step...development of character. If we quit and don't persevere, we don't develop character and if we don't develop character then we don't hope. Why? Because character cares for hope. Those without character don't hope or care for hope. Hope is a virtue and those without character wouldn't want anything to do with it anyway. They can be optimistic but that is very different than hope.

As Adam said we have a possibility. A possible way to live our life, in hope, receiving the nourishing love of God, no matter our circumstances. It is not necessarily a hope that hopes for immediate resolve of a problem, that would be only partially satisfactory, an incomplete hope. That hope would only solve the immediate issue. What about the next problem? The hope that is spoken of here is a hope that truly "solves" the problem. A hope that hopes for something that should be hoped for. We are now in a position to receive the love of God that was being poured out to us all this time. This reception of the love of God is what helps us move through our world in the midst of our suffering.

I have experienced this only once or twice and it truly is amazing. The only thing that I can liken it to is coming to after an anaesthetic. Everything becomes clearer.

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Subject: Where does hope come from?


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 06:52:39 05/07/02 Tue

First of all I enjoy reading all of your commentaries, you all are unique. I was telling Angela though that I love to read Adam's because the fun is getting prepared for it. I love to sit down with my cup o' joe in a relaxing position, take a deep breath, and prepare for the exegesis that Adam brings forth out of life. It is great.

This particular topic sparks many uncomfortable and scary memories for me. The text says rejoice in suffering because it produces perseverance. Perseverence then produces character. Character hope and Finally hope doesn't disappoint us because our source of hope is in God. I agree with Adam's friend in that this text is all well and good until you try and practice it. It is like trying to tell my wife what my job is like. I could be the greatest narrator in the history of mankind and she would still not understand how difficult my job is. To me, this is like reading in the Psalms where David says, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me". Great verse, but I doubt we put much effort into understanding or really knowing what David went through when he wrote that. I can't imagine the amount of stress and anxiety at the time of this authorship.

The points that I believe I have learned from the former passage is that although I go kicking and screaming through perseverance, it still produces character. This character is more precious than anything we could buy or achieve and we could not receive this without suffering and perseverance. This character is the molding by God into a Christ-likeness that we could not do on our own. To use the analogy of a pair of eyeglasses, this molding into Christ-likeness gives us better "eyeglasses" to see like Christ would have seen, not to be blinded in the sinful nature with which we were born into. If you read "the power of prayer" page on coolhombres, I wrote about my dad's recent experience. Let me tell you that I know my dad is a man of character. He persevered in his sufferings. His character gave him hope. And he knew or believed that this hope would not disappoint, because his hope was in the Lord. My argument then is that because if we finally achieve character, we have the faith to hope. Because through this character we already have built up the necessary "eyesight" to have hope. In other words, the character we have is Christ-like. And because the character is Christ-like we are more in tune with the faith that Christ had in the Father. Therefore, we can trust in faith to have hope in him. I hope that was not too confusing.

I think that this suffering is worthy of rejoicing because it purges out "self" and forces us to trust in God. And he does such a better job in my life than I could do. To me, this is the importance of this suffering. It is necessary to say, "I am in a jam God, but yet you are the only one that can get me out" so I will trust in you for the outcome. What is interesting, is that despite what our mind says will happen, this is the hope that does not disappoint us. God will never let us down and always produces a better result than what we could do on our own accord. This is true hope, only achieved through character, which was achieved through perseverance, which started with sufferings. I believe now, that God is always working when we surrender ourself to him, however, we may not see how he is working until a later date.

Finally, the issue of "I don't have any more left to give" I think is a real issue and problem, that my wife and I have definately experienced. The verse I always have to cling to is I Corinthians 10:13 "And God is faithful, he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it". If we could some how obtain more character, I believe that we can honestly rest upon that verses facts.

Yeager

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Subject: I laughed...I cried


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 05:37:31 04/30/02 Tue

Great question Doug. I am going to go ahead and violate the coolhombres corporate charter and continue talking about last weeks topic.

I will answer your question first in regards to my own life and secondly in more general terms.

I do take a step back and examine where a certain emotion may be headed. But, it is only after I have experienced where that particular emotion has taken me many times before. So in that sense it is a time developed response. I observe a particular emotionally related response, that becomes a perpetual response, that eventually becomes a habit. A bad habit.

For example: When I get angry I withdraw. When my wife gets overbearing I shut down. That is my way to punish her. I don't get combative or obstinate. I don't hurl insults. I don't hurl anything. So what happens is my wife generally gets her way and I suppress my rage. This is not good. In my opionion this is anger that is not directed in a positive way. I used to behave this way all in the name of being a loving husband...I think that I was just being a wimp. I examined this pattern and determined that it was not only distructive but sinful. So how do I channel, or attempt to channel, my anger now? I learned to do something that I hate doing. Arguing.

Julie will always attempt to control me in some way or another, she shouldn't be faulted entirely for it, it is part of the fall. When she does this and my anger stirs I believe that my obligation is to be an affront, not to her, but to her sin. I need to formulate my anger into a positive package of spirited dialogue and debate. That is just college talk for arguing. It is messy because we are not accostomed to it. She cries and accuses and I feel guilty, but after many trial runs we get better at it.

I don't think the anger I feel when she overpowers is bad. I think that it is good because it alerts me to something that isn't right. But it is my responsibility to do something virtuos with it.

Anxiety is a lot tougher. I am an anxious person. The only thing that I can say is that anxiety may be, not an emotion, but the negative outworking of some other emotion. In one sense I think we "do" anxiety. We worry (active). The base emotion that anxiety stems from could be something more nebulous. Like concern. We are concerned about somthing, something that we could even do something about but don't, and eventually we fixate and it envelops our whole life. So to use the direction and channel method: We get concerned about something, something that may be under our influence, and instead of channeling our conern into action upon it, we sit and worry about it and anxiety is the by-product. Conversely, if we are concerned about something and channel our concern into a postive action, we may be able to head off anxiety.

Just another theory.

#1 dad

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Subject: Anxiety


Author:
ds
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Date Posted: 13:20:53 04/26/02 Fri

What a perfect message for me this week. I am curious to know more of what Chad means by "Channeling." By channeling am I taking a step back from my emotions, looking at the facts, and then acting? Is this a time developed characteristic?

ds

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Subject: Anger Management


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 05:42:14 04/25/02 Thu

AK:

Good point on separating out lust and then the insight on Anger. I know Tim already hit up anger and I think that you are right that some anger is good; let's call it righteous anger. Then some anger is bad, say toward a neighbor; let's call that resentment. Maybe the rest of you have some further thoughts to other good and bad anger.

I was thinking too about your friends that said that they were experiencing some anxiety. I too, get sick and tired of people telling me to "get over it" or "think happy thoughts" or "to change my attitude". I believe it is impossible for ME to change my attitude or to get better; almost piggybacking off of Shrieve's previous commentary that we are, to use the analogy, in the hospital bed on a respirator. In other words, I don't think we have the ability to save ourselves from anything on our own. Yet, I still think about PHIL 4:6 that says, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

I have wondered recently if this anxiety and struggle is an oppression from the enemy, according to Ephesians 6:12. Because these thoughts on anxiety seem to somewhat differ from what the Bible says on love for instance in Rom 8:39.

Yeager

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Subject: state of mind


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 15:14:55 04/24/02 Wed

Yeag,

Thanks for making me clarify my position. First of all, I don't consider lust to be an emotion. Someone might want to challenge me on that one, but it seems to me that there is more going on. So what about anger? How do we make sense of the passages "Be angry, but sin not" and "I tell you that even if a man is angry at his brother, he is subject to judgment." Is there a contradiction here?

Was Jesus angry in the temple when he overturned the tax collector's tables? Did he get angry at the Pharisees when he called them a brood of vipers? What about when I get angry when I stub my toe on the sidewalk? Is that sin? Can I be angry at Hitler for the Holocaust?

It seems like anger needs to be unpacked in order to accomodate for these cases. Are there levels to anger? Is some anger bad and some okay? Is anger okay if it is justified? Help me out.

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Subject: Emotions


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 05:46:40 04/23/02 Tue

AK:

I read your excerpt and want to believe that. But I wonder what was meant when Jesus says in Matt 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement." Or how about 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery,' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

Is there a difference here?

Yeager

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Subject: feelings, nothing more than feelings


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 20:40:02 04/22/02 Mon

#1,

Emotions...friends or foes. I agree with your commentary that emotions are not "bad" or "good" in and of themselves. As you say, it is their direction that is the issue. Jesus was certainly an emotional person. He was sad to the point of tears, was angry to the point of violence, and had anxiety to the point of shedding tears of blood. And if he was perfect, then emotions, particularly the supposedly "bad" ones, cannot be so bad.

Where did we get this idea that emotions are somehow a deviant or base part of our lives? I had dinner tonight with a dear friend from Taylor who struggling with anxiety. They said that when they started telling people about their problem, some said, "You just need to trust God more" and "Just get over it".

Have you ever seen the church show on Sunday mornings with Robert Shuller? He is a pastor down in Flordia and is the author of "The Power of Positive Thinking". I hate this book with all that I am. I want to be a suicide bomber in this church. Sorry......

The idea in this book is that if you have one of these "bad" emotions, then what you have to do is think positive thoughts. This is done all in name of victorious christian living. The life of the christian should be one of joy and happiness.

My suggestion is that emotions should not be stated in moral categories. "Be angry, but sin not." And by implication....be sad, be anxious, be happy, be joyful, but sin not. Morality is about what you do, not what you feel. You are sinful if you do something bad, not if you feel something "bad".

ak

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Subject: Ignoring the Holy Spirit


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 10:57:23 04/16/02 Tue

OK:

Doug, nice job by the way on the commentary. It seems to me that Doug's commentary sends three thoughts or rather questions out: 1)Using the example of the man on a hospital bed with a respirator, if spiritually dead, how can we be made alive? 2)What was the Holy Spirit's role, particularly in the Old Testament 3)(most importantly)Can the Holy Spirit be ignored, especially to that of receiving salvation?

Well, it seems to me that it is clear in Scripture that it IS the Holy Spirit who regenerates us. The question then becomes HOW does he regenerate us and do we have any choice in the matter? I don't believe that any of us will be able to answer HOW he regenerates us because the Holy Spirit is God and we are not. So now, we are left with the difficult question of whether we have any say or not in this decision to regenerate us? It seems like we could go a number of routes from here. First, that of Election. What a dirty word; to some. If we are predestined, or elected than that would mean that God's decretive will or sovereignty will prevail, no matter what. With this choice we are pawns in the chess game of God and have no choice in the matter. The second choice would be that of heralding the thought of "Free Will". Here the idea becomes that it is up to us to choose God's offer by the Holy Spirit. In other words, it puts the ball in our court. The real difficulty now comes the fact that God is omniscient and knows the future and technically what we will choose. So then did we really have any choice at all?

My personal belief with the above two choices is that only God knows the outcome. We could argue that because he knows the outcome and is omniscient than therefore we are predestined or elected in this regeneration process but that would be foolishness. Because the fact still remains that nobody will know or does have the capacity to be omniscient. Therefore, hence comes the idea of what I believe to be the true "free will". It is free will to us today. Meaning that Today, I have choices that I can make. Before I accepted Christ, I had a choice to accept him or not to. Only God knew what I would choose and yet I still, at the time, made a choice. In conclusion, what I find to be the most fascinating phenomenom about this whole issue is how God offers to us equally this "opportunity" without favoritism for us to make this choice to accept him or not to. Even though he knows what the outcome will be. Now that, to me, is unbelievable!

Yeager

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Subject: Tithes


Author:
Osprey
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Date Posted: 14:33:18 04/13/02 Sat

Coming from the peace corps, only recently have I had a substancial income from which to give from. I relate to Dan with the way I sometimes groan seeing so much money go to the church when I still have school loans, mortgage, etc. The money is given in faith, but almost a grudging faith. And so I find myself giving for no other reason than a stubborn determination to conform to what I know is obedient rather than from any real confidence and joy. I suspect God knows exactly where I am at and will work with me on it.

T.

P.S. I liked Dan's idea of stuffing away tithes in an account to be used later if you are not committed to a church at the time. Or what about a favorite Christian organization... Surely a tithe could legitimately be sent there when no home church is available?

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[> Subject: Reply to Tim


Author:
Dan
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Date Posted: 19:28:00 04/14/02 Sun

In response to Tim and an addendum to my last posting:

Just today a particular ministry opportunity was presented at our church. Both Myndi and I got excited and wanted to contribute. Having already tithed to our church for the month and paid support for the children we sponsor through Compassion International(which we consider tithe) that would have been difficult with our rescources.

This is the beauty of the "God account", the funds were already set aside and we could experience the joy of giving when a need was presented.

Is a christian organization eligible for tithe money? In my opinion the spirit of the law when in comes to tithing is very simple. Any group, person, organization or establishment that is primarily focused on the advancement of the Kingdom and Gospel of Chist is OK. This is why Myndi and I feel comfortable using some of our tithe money to support a Christian organization like Compassion International. Best advise I can offer is to do your research on any organization and to pray for wisdom and discernment before giving.

chunk-wolfgang von lichendenstien or Dan

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Subject: God Account


Author:
Daniel
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Date Posted: 08:18:41 04/12/02 Fri

I can relate to Adam's feeling of not being connected to a church and the uncertainty of giving when not plugged in to the ministries. Myndi and I had stuggled with this for quite some time while out here in Chicago. Bouncing between churches made it hard to know where to give out tithe and at times it felt like we were shelling out an admission fee to visit rather thas actively contribuitng to the work of the Lord.

I am blessed to have a wife that balances my rationalizations with money. It is hard to know if you should tithe on your limited income especially when it is augmented by student loans. Shamefully, I must admit that at times it is only her convictions that kept my attitude in check when things got tight.

One thing we have done is to establish a "God Account" this is a seperate savings acount that we devote to tithe money and it is airmarked only for giving. Having this account keeps this money seperate from our general operating accounts and frees us up to give when the lord points out a need around us. Supporting the church you attend on a regular basis is very important, positioning yourself to meet the unexpected needs of the Kingdom is liberating.

God has blessed us in so many ways and it is an understanding of the true economy of life which makes giving back to God so easy.

Obviously there is not a reciprocal relationship between giving and blessing, we all know the parables well which would refute such a thought. I believe the Lord judges our heart and motives in giving; our faith in Him to provide, to let go the reins of our own financial matters, and trust that obedience with a cheerful heart is indeed a measure of faith.

Franz- Years ago I asked my father if your were suppose to tithe on the the gross or the net. His reply, "do you want to be blessed on the gross or the net." Simple logic from a very simple farm boy.

Dan

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Subject: money


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 05:24:12 04/11/02 Thu

Nice Franz...but hard to hear...

Erica and I were doing fine with the whole tithe subject until we moved about to Boston. We have been wavering between churches and just recently felt like we committed to one. It is tough to give when you don't feel plugged in yet.

So I agree that we should tithe. But I am curious about the whole connection with blessing. Does that mean that if Erica and I start to give to our new church that God will give us more money? What does "blessing" mean? I don't think that I would make a one to one correlation. Can we even measure God's blessing in our lives until we live longer? It almost seems like blessing might be determined at the end of life, looking back.

Here is my little formulation of tithe blessing. It seems to me that if you are giving to a church that you are not only invested with your time but even with your money. Money is so symbolic of commitment. If you are totally committed somewhere, you are giving of yourself, which includes money.

I am a big fan of the idea that you get out as much as you put in. In this sense, if you are giving in all areas, you will be able receive more. You just care more. Your more involved. You receive "blessing" back from your church.

Here is my analogy. I don't think there is any magical element in this process of blessing. If Erica and I were to join some yacht club (which we would never do) and we were paying our annual dues, we would be more likely to go to the potlucks and regattas, or whatever yachties do. We would be invested in it, involved. If the clubhouse needed painting, we would tell someone, or do it ourselves, etc. When you are involved like that, it pays off in personal satisfaction. You feel apart of the community. Etc. etc.

So maybe one mode of "blessing" happens through the specific church that you give to. Not to deny that God will directly honor your virtue and piety.

I remember having conversations with Yeager about this...good times.

ak

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Subject: Cash Money Dough Flo


Author:
Shrieve
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Date Posted: 05:08:22 04/11/02 Thu

Giving is a good thing. In the few times that I have given extra I feel great right after doing it. I don't think that these are feelings that are necessarily good though. They can come back to bite me. It can cause me to feel like I've done something that merits me God's blessing within the next couple of days. For example, "thanks a lot Doug for your gift you don't know how it helped." "Boy Doug you sure are great, thanks for giving me your time yesterday or for the money to help. . .it came just in time." I have given hoping that I recieve some kind of instant credit internally, thus making me feel like a million bucks when I only gave fifty.

Just before Caroline and I got married I was given an evelope by my dad. He told me that it was from a Christian man who is a friend of mine in Muncie. Caroline and I opened it up and there was a supply of money in it! We couldn't believe it! What was more amazing, there was no signed name noting the giver.

Matthew 6:3 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret." In secret with who? I believe Christ is saying in secret with yourself. It is to easy to have pride when giving. If it is a secret from your self. Then you expect no gain.

As far as the reward, God tells us later in Matt. and in other passages that we will be blessed. Who cares when it comes then. If in secret our mind will not allow to dwell upon questioning when or how our blessing will come. Let me know what you guys think.

ds

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Subject: Malachi 3:10


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 05:46:25 04/10/02 Wed

Malachi 3:10!

There is no denying it. It is plain and simple. It is a direct promise from God. I can remember in my past direct instances, like Franz, where God not only provided for me, but also blessed me substantially. So much so that I can remember our Sophomore year getting into a unique discussion about this very subject with Shrieve. I had so much confidence in Malachi 3:10 because I had seen it work without fail and thus proved to me the sovereignty and miraculous nature in God.

To me, it was like in Indiana Jones' "Last Crusade" where Harrison Ford looks down at where he must cross on an invisible bridge, yet does not see a bridge there. Yet he reads again in his notes that he must cross this invisible bridge in order to save his dying father. So he closes his eyes and takes that leap of faith. To his surprise, the bridge exists and he steps onto a very real surface that sustains him. In this way, I draw a similar relationship to tithing; as in Franz's example. Tithing is commanded yet, sometimes we either don't want to do it or don't see how God will provide.

Now comes the drastic counter argument to this experience. Currently, flashes go through my mind of a tithing situation this past year where Angela and I decided to give more than what we believed was required. However, I can honestly say that I do not and have not seen any Malachi 3:10 results. In fact, I would argue the opposite. I would argue that it is possible that this gift would limit us in our future decisions and financial wellbeing. This "tithe" could set us back quite a ways and limit our flexibility to a large extent.

It is because of these circumstances that I somewhat scratch my head. Now we could "defend" God in a number of ways. It could easily be said that we don't know HOW God would bless us. We could say that we don't know at what TIME God will bless us. These loopholes, so to speak, could and probably do require examining. However, my question is why would God issue this promise? Why not just say, "do it" and have that be the end of it. Why go the extent of Malachi 3:10. This is not to be a sacrilegious reply to Franz' thoughts, but rather a complex hermaneutic reply to God's word. On a personal note, I have not held fast to the implications of Malachi 3:10 but have rather shrugged it off as the idea that money is God's anyway. I have somewhat of a peace about it. However, every once in a while I think about that verse. Let me know what you guys think.

Yeager

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Subject: thomas aquinas


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 08:10:14 04/04/02 Thu

Well, I just got out of my Thomas Aquinas class and the subject was God's anger. I was shocked at Thomas' position which basically is that God is not, and cannot be angry. Here is a snipit: "Anger is the appetite of another's evil for the sake of revenge. Anger, therefore, is far from God according to the nature of its species, not only because it is an effect of sadness, but likewise because it is an appetite for revenge arising from sadness due to an injury received." My interpretation: God can't be angry because anger implies some kind of injury. One gets angry because they have been violated or had some aspect of themselves taken away. This is impossible for God.

So the class was talking about it and I piped in as a reprentative for coolhombres. I used Beuk's comment that God is above all concerned with his own glory. I recalled Yeager's thoughts on God's holiness. And Frizzell's ideas that God is so intimately involved with creation that it matters to him how we live, to the extent that he will send his own son for our redemption. Thanks coolones.

Unfortunately, I think Thomas is wrong on this one. He needed some coolguys to chat with. He was too busy reading Aristotle, a philosophy geek.

ak

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Subject: The rest of the story


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 06:18:29 04/04/02 Thu

Larry, it occurred to me that by your visiting coolhombres you are privy to some sensitive information. Information that Jon Yeager would prefer remains hidden in the deep recesses of his past. Namely that he has a history of urinating on his adversary's clothing. When we bring this up about Jon it is not meant to disparage him. It is meant to illuminate the complex person that he is. Jon is a tremendous individual with a lot to offer. That being said, if you cross him, I wouldn't leave my suit coat unattended.

God's wrath. Why is it minimized today? Why do we seem to have two Gods like we have two Testaments? I am somewhat familiar with the line of thinking that Adam posted. That God is "working himself out" or "evolving" so to speak. Obviously Orthodox Christians would take issue with this line of reasoning because it seems to violate one of the major attributes of God: his immutability. If God is perfect today then he was so at the beginning of creation. But, this is a fairly simplistic defense because I have not thought about it enough.

God's wrath is a serious problem. The Old Testament is full of people that were the unfortunate recipients of this wrath. What has helped me to get a grasp of this concept of wrath is to read the Bible as a cohesive document. Cover to cover. What I discovered is it does just that. It reads like a cohesive document. It's like any other book (no blasphemy intended). Trying reading 3 paragraphs in the middle of a book that you have never read. I don't know if you will gain much value from that. You would read the book from cover to cover to comply understand it. If you were to randomly read excerpts from the Bible you might stumble across the following jewels of wisdom.

"At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar" I Chronicles 26:18

"O daughter of Babylon...Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 139:9

One of these verses appears to be completely incoherent while the other seems to advocate the murder of children. Sure, there are books that in and of themselves are useful for teaching, but the Bible is best read in its entirety. Anyway, back to wrath.

From Genesis to Malachi you read and sympathize with itinerant Israel. But you also understand God's wrath. He had chosen and invested in these people and they seemed hell-bent on defying him. He threatened to eradicate them at one point buy Moses interceded. His wrath continues to burn against dishonest kings and unrepentant people. By the time you turn the last page on Malachi you realize that a drastic solution is needed if these people are going to survive. Enter the New Testament and Jesus. God has always loved these people and has always exercised his wrath against them. But now we have the climax...the grand face off. God loves these people, and all people, so much that he will do whatever it takes to save them...whatever it takes without compromising his character. That is a serious problem because these people deserve wrath and justice. What does he do? He pours them out on his son to save us all. God's love meets his wrath at the cross. The entire Old Testament seems to be working its way towards Jesus and the entire New Testament seems to point back to Jesus.

God's wrath has purpose and direction and is guided by his holiness. It is not capricious and arbitrary like our wrath. My wrath is more guided by my wounded ego than anything else. I don’t believe that God’s wrath has been mitigated at all. It has burned and continues to burn white hot against sin and evil. But it seems that it has been dealt with for the time being…we have been given a stay of execution so to speak.

I am afraid of his wrath but I am probably more afraid of his displeasure. I am not afraid of being smitten in my sleep but I am afraid of not hearing the words "well done my good and faithful servant." He crucified his son because of his love for us and hate for sin. But before he did so, he pointed to that son and said, "be like him." Not being like him scares me more than being turned into a pillar of salt.

"If grace is doctrine, then ethics is gratitude"
J.I. Packer

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Subject: The holiness of God


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 06:39:17 04/02/02 Tue

Yeager,

Thanks for the posting this week. Also, a warm welcome to Larry Tucker. Thanks for your thoughts on your own spiritual journey. I hope we will be able to learn from you. Keep posting...

Sinners in the hands of an angry God....God is holy. He cannot look upon sin. He demands holiness of us. I agree with you Yeager that this aspect of God's character is minimized in our contemporary culture. In our Christian circles it is more fashionable to emphasize God's mercy and immanence over his holiness and transcendance. It is important to keep these attributes in tension.

"Here's a theory for you to disregard." (Lester Banks) I am in some pretty interesting circles out here in Boston. They tend to be more on the left side. I am going to a Jesuit school, Boston College. Jesuits are infamous for not only pushing the party line, but going over it. I also live a couple minutes from Cambridge, MA which is arguable the most progessive part of the country. I was at a lecture at Harvard the other day and they were bashing the institution of marriage. I suddenly realized that not only was I the only married person in the room, I was the only straight person in the room. Point: I am getting the "other" perspective.

All that to say, I think that some of the more leftist people would respond to Yeager's comments in the following way....They would say that our conception of God, or even God himself, is becoming more user friendly. The God of wrath, and judgment, and genocide is the God of the Old Testament. As history has progressed, so has our conception of God. This is reflected in the evolution of God into a nicer, more loving and merciful God. This is the God of the New Testament. The gospel is no longer limited to one nation, it is for everyone. You don't have to follow all these rules like in the OT anymore, just accept Jesus' love for us and reproduce it. Simply, the OT God was a mean God, the NT God is a nice God. Just as history is in a process, so too is God. As history goes on, our God is getting "cleaner". We cast off all these primitive conceptions of diety, (i.e. sacrifice, murder, ethnocentrism, etc.) and develop into a purer God concept (love, peace, forgiveness, grace, etc.)

This is one of the things I thought of in regards to, not only Yeager's posting, but our discussion of fear and hatred. The views presented don't reflect my views, but I wonder how you guys would respond.

ak

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Subject: Tucker's Two Cents


Author:
Larry Tucker
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Date Posted: 20:19:04 03/30/02 Sat

This is my first posting. I'm 53, single, a common guy, an office worker in Fort Myers, Florida. Not sure if I even belong here but as I read over the postings I got to thinking of a long time ago when I was growing up in New England back in the 1950's. We were poor and I would make the bike trek to the little Methodist church in town. I couldn't stand it but I would make many repeated trips. I never liked it because maybe I was odd or whatever, but I found listening to scripture excruciatingly boring. The stories were boring, the verbiage was boring. Somehow it just rang hollow. Eventually I would stop going but would try again in my adolescent years and nothing had changed. By now I had heard about the Maccabees, the Pharisees, the Lot thing with the salt, the loaves and the fishes, oh my gosh. (No offense to anyone, seriously!) I found none of it inspiring except for a few parables and some of the psalms. There would be no church for me for the next many years except for weddings or funerals. By the mid-1980's I was a grown up and would try going to church again, but no, there were never any common sense messages, you know, how a person could improve their self-esteem if there was a lacking, how they could work out a particular problem or let's say, achieve a goal. It just wasn't for me.
In 1987 I made a conscious decision to develop some kind of spiritual program in my life and of course would have no idea where this would lead me. First, I had a willingness to learn and that was a great plus. I sought out a couple others in town here who I knew were on a similar quest. The three of us would meet with the Bible on the table, a couple books by metaphysical authors, we would discuss them, and of course, apply these good principles in our lives. This would continue for a long time. By now I had become familiar with phrases such as all journeys start with one step, everything begins with a thought, and life is action. It was that last one which really thrilled me and does to this day. You see, I pray but not in the laundry-list-beseechment form. I give thanks for the day just completed, I express thanks for the mind I've been given, the ability to use it correctly or incorrectly, and I pray for those who might be less fortunate than myself. Our little group met for a long time but life is constant change as all of us know and each of us went our own way eventually. We still keep in touch. One is quite elderly sharing time with the usual old age infirmities, another went on to get married to a nice gal from the Presbyterian church, and me, oh well, I'm here with my cat of 17 years and very content with my life. I believe I am content because of that conscious decision I made back in 1987. I choose to say that I am quite pleased with the spiritual connection I have made which I continue to keep green. It is not necessary to proclaim it from the rooftops as I have witnessed that the masses really could care less about my spiritual beliefs, I mean, really. It's like the people who want change in their life but are not willing to take right action with which to effectuate such change.
For obvious reasons I've had to encapsulate this treatise lest the connections burn out in this computer.
I should like to wrap this up with one last thought: I never spend much time on those things which I cannot understand or perhaps I am not to understand. This could come in the form of the written word or the spoken word. Oh sure, for the purpose of mind flexing with friends it can be healthy and perhaps a resolution is drawn up which is positive but I come back to those things which have perplexed me at the proper time. Someone said that too much analysis can lead to paralysis and I like to modify that by saying that it leads to confusion, mental congestion, and I like to get to the meat of the matter so I can begin to apply healthy spiritual principles in my life. Life moves at an incredible speed; it did when I was in my 20's and continues to. That's okay because I accept whatever awaits me and I've had a good run. (I've come very close to not sending this but I've gone this far so I had best give it a try.)
And so, to all of you "cool hombres" who I will never personally know, I wish for you your highest good, both personally as well as professionally. Larry Tucker

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Subject: Nebraska


Author:
JBeuk
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Date Posted: 12:32:06 03/27/02 Wed

I really hope I am posting on to this correctly! Thanks for the commentary today. Great message on what God's desire is (to be glorified)and how we should respond. I always think if I am bold for Christ and do what He says, then my life should be pretty easy. I guess it is the opposite.

My question is, can we say God is a jealous God in the same way we are jealous? -or is he bigger, or different than our definition? It does seem that we are in the "God Show" and His main desire is to be praised. I see why Tim wrote that (scripture). I guess I never think of God in that light.

I have a new prayer request now that B-ball is over. I just started a John study with my next door neighbor. He said he was interested in learning more about God. I just finished going through it myself so I thought it might be a good idea. If anyone has any suggestions for me, please let me know. I have no idea how this is going to turn out. The first week went OK, I think.

The ski trip was great, thanks for the great time.
JB

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[> Subject: revenge


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 14:19:18 03/27/02 Wed

Yeager,

I hope my reference to you in regards to revenge wasn't taken the wrong way...It was tongue and cheek at the time. I think I speak for most of the coolguys when I say that I admire your past impulse for justice. In that way, you were onto the right thing when you pissed all over Doug's clothes. The impulse is right. Hate evil. Demand justice. Get revenge. But as you correctly point out, it is an incomplete form of it.


ak

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Subject: Hating Sin


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 09:37:51 03/27/02 Wed

AK:

Great post. I seriously couldn't resist responding to it, especially after calculation the mistakes I have made in the past with regards to revenge, that you brought out.

The first idea of having hate, but yet having a sinful nature is alarming. And the follow-up argument of being angry but not sinning? Last, but not least, is the idea of revenge.

Knowing what to hate seems to draw out my thoughts on II Peter 1:5-10 "For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in INCREASING measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." This passage makes me seem to believe that if we pursue these things in increasing knowledge that we will have the ability of knowing more of what Christ's will is and therefore what to hate and not to hate. I know I have talked to Shrieve about this passage before and it seems to offer a lot. I love the fact that it also defends the negative slant of complacency regarding these traits, in that it heralds the counter-pursuit by us in saying that if we pursue these traits, we will also not fall. This would seem to me to be a justification of the "how to" of knowing when to hate and not hate.

Now onto the dessert; revenge. Obviously, a clever spun argument with the punchline being at my expense. My thoughts on revenge, have changed over the years thanks to God's provision. I am sure you all could embelish on what those past standard operating procedures would be. However, today it is remarkably different, to an extent. One day, after finishing the "Count of Montecristo", it dawned on me the idea that Edmund Dantes' revenge stunk, for lack of a better term. This would be AK's argument, that we are no good at revenge. I think he is right. But in examining God's plan, a remarkable development seemed to occur in me especially relating to people. I surmised that God's plan for revenge on people, for example, might be for us to give it to Him, not just because He is better at it, but also to give them a chance of repentence and acceptance of the "kingdom". II Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence". The idea then, would be that revenge might be used to bring someone to know Christ and then to be used as a testimony to others. After all, how uncommon would it be for someone to turn over revenge to God? Wouldn't that draw an attention to the situation? Couldn't God then proclaim, "Look at what I can do with revenge?"

The real question then would seem to be, can I kick his @#$% once we both walk through the pearly gates?

Yeager

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Subject: Can I get a witness?


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 07:28:21 03/27/02 Wed

I think I speak for cool guys proper when I say, "It's good to hear from you T." The prodigal has returned.

Hate. I believe that we are the recipients of more hate than we realize. True, I have never been seized, arrested, or beaten. But I have been hated. The hatred I receive is a lot more sinister and covert.

I think hate has morphed since our Lord's day. It has been civilized even domesticated. To borrow a phrase from the British, "it has been given it's coat and tails." Now, when I speak of hate being civilized and domesticated I speak of a hate that is experienced in a civilized and domesticated society. The hate that is experienced by those Christians in China, Indonesia or any other Communist or Muslim militant country is truly a brutal hate. I speak of a Western hate.

The hate that I experience is more along the lines of ridicule and contempt. I express my views in a non-christian setting and I am written off as naive and un-enlightened. I am often told by one co-worker, "you just need time to come around, you haven't lived long enough," as he walks away shaking his head, exasperated. I leave the table at lunch to fill up my salad plate after a spirited debate on gay adoption, and, as I look back at my collegues I can read the non-verbals. I can see a look of hate. These people would never ambush me in the parking lot with a baseball bat. They would never accuse me of embezzelment. They haven't even witheld friendship from me. But, I do believe that they would, and do, plot together against me. As a group they could diminish my credibility and question my judgement so that I no longer could have an influence over any one individual in that group. A moderate form of slander. I believe that the reason that they do not "take me out" so to speak is that I am not a serious threat. I am threat, no doubt, that does need to be dealt with, but nothing to lose sleep over.

Jesus, now there is a serious threat. My guess is that when there is a theological debate, or a debate on how one should live according to the law, the miracle worker generally has the upper hand. Instant credibility. Not only did Jesus brow beat the Pharisees with his intellectual prowess, but, just in case there was any doubt, he went ahead and healed the paralytic anyway. I am sure that the Pharisees had been called a brood of vipers in the past but they had probably never been called a brood of vipers and then seen their accuser cleanse a leper. They had a serious problem. Jesus was threatening to upend their influence and ruin their lifestyle. He had to be dealt with. He had to be killed.

My guess is that if we truly want to be hated as Jesus was, then we need to find a way to be the kind of formidable theat that he was. I don't know how to do that. Popular influence has painted us Christians as close minded malcontents that believe in mythology. We definitely have an uphill battle but there has to be a way.

Acts 3:6-8 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk. Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God.

It is an interesting question. Would I give up my silver and gold to be able to do what Peter did? I like to think that I would...of course I might be killed for it like he was.

Frizzell

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[> Subject: I hate that guy.


Author:
ak
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Date Posted: 07:56:06 03/27/02 Wed

"To fear the Lord is to hate evil." Thanks for the quote Yeager...A nice connection.

Here is where I come down on the hate topic...I agree that God is a hating God. He is a jealous God. He is angry.

I would also claim that in order to love, you must be able to hate as well. This is a matter of intensity. To the degree that you can hate, that is the degree that you will be able to love. To resurrect the cliche word of the 80's, both are instances of "passion".

Here is where the rub is for me...I agree that God hates, and I agree that we should try to be like God, but the problem that I see is how to do that when we have remnants of sin nature. How do we know that what we would hate is what God would hate? We don't have God's holy, perfect wrath. Be angry, but sin not. How do we hate without sinning?

I have a suggestion. Why does God tell us to postpone our revenge? Vengence is mine, the Lord says. My thought is that if we were to take our revenge now, we just wouldn't be all that good at it. (Maybe with the exception of Yeager) It would be incomplete, shallow. If we wait to take revenge, God will help us take it fully. This postponement of revenge, hatred, anger is so that it can be justified and compensated fully.

Another reason to wait, is that we will have better prudence as to what deserves hatred and what doesn't. This is my fear about our hatred discussion. So who do you hate? The ones that hate you? The homosexual? The liberal? The muslim? We need wisdom to know what is evil or we may make the mistake of misappropriating evil (see George W. Bush on the axis of evil). If we wait to make the evil judgement, we will be better able to discern.

My word for this is hopeful hatred. Revenge is something to anticipate and nuture, but not to take now.

ak

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Subject: DON'T HATE TIM LINEHAN


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 13:55:37 03/26/02 Tue

Tim:

Incredible commentary. Interesting and fruitful discussion of "hate".

I was thinking of the implications of God's example to us to follow regarding hate and decided to expand on the use of "hate" in Scripture.

Psalm 36:1-3 says, "An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good".

Pslam 5:5 says, "The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong".

Proverbs 8:13 says, "To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech".

Psalm 81:15 says, "Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever".

Proverbs 9:8 says, "Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you".

Through these verses, I see the holiness involved with this fear of hatred that we should see. I am amazed, especially at myself, in the complacency of fearing the Lord regarding how incredible this hatred really is. Should we not be falling on our faces praising God and serving Him regarding this hatred that we have escaped?

It seems to me that there is an uneasiness in believing that God really could "hate" anything. Isn't God a loving God? How could He hate even the wicked? I think Tim has a point that in today's society, to say something dogmatically in any direction would raise an eyebrow. Hate? What did you say? That would be wrong to hate that. By the way, what were you talking about?

No, today in our society, we "say" that we accept almost anything as long as it doesn't rock the boat or make someone feel uncomfortable. After all, if I can be comfortable and you are comfortable, what's the harm; even if we have opposing viewpoints?

Well, obviously that is all well and good until something happens that infringes on my rights or beliefs (ex: a couple of planes come crashing into some buildings of mine). Now what do we do? Your beliefs just intruded on mine. What you thought was right, conflicts and harms, what I think is not right. The conclusion must be that there are some absolute truths. These truths have already been set up and are there for our protection, not to stiffle us. And if there are some things that are right and some things that are wrong, that would mean that we all are not pleasing and pursuing what is right according to God.

Yeager

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Subject: Hate Love Relationship


Author:
Shrieve
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Date Posted: 22:15:54 03/25/02 Mon

In room 204B, Spencer used to wait until around 1Am to start working on his paper due that day. Fifteen minutes ago, I kissed my wife good-night, strolled over to the fridge, grabbed a Budweiser, and sat down to read the latest comentary and message board posts. 11:30PM. Now I am the one typing late into the night.

Tim's right! It would be great to hate (the right things to hate) more frequently. Towards the end of Gal. 5 Paul demands that we hate what we do and turn towards the fruits offered by the HS. Does the ripening of these fruits mean that I'm going to get jacked? I don't know. I do know that I am not going to develope an increasing desire to be picked on. I'm also pretty sure that God is not up there giving me bonus points for how many time times I'm insulted down here.

With Easter beeing near, Tim picked an great time to issue his comentary on hate. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Look, your house is left to your desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

God hated, and hates what I need to hate so much that He truly hated to see us, even gentiles, suffer eternally. His son he sent. This is love.

Shrieve

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Subject: What is cool?


Author:
T. Linehan
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Date Posted: 13:43:23 03/23/02 Sat

I love the "kingdom" discussion- reminds me of my fav. book in the last couple of years, "Divine Conspiracy" by Willard. I am sure many of you are familiar with it.
But I am absolutely fascintated by this idea of "coolguys" as presented by Adam. I never thought of the name of our group as more than a tongue in cheek salute to our non-nerdiness (for lack of a better word.) Coolguys was and still is exclusive by nature- and even our exclusivity was an intentional irony, I think. But we recognized in one another a common element: coolness. And yet look at the diversity of coolguys. Some in the group were known campus-wide. Myself and a few others, probably less so. A couple of coolguys come to mind as great athletes. But not all. Some bookish and of a philosophical bent. But not all. And yet there is an obvious common element; a prerequisite for membership, really. Coolness. But I'm still no closer to knowing what cool is. I used to jokingly define cool as anything that james dean would do. But coolguys refuse to let the world define our coolness. I think we'd all agree (as manifested in our discussion of the kingdom)that our coolness is not derived from worldliness. From what I'm hearing on the message board, I think genuineness and sincerity are a large part of coolness. Phony is anti-cool. (think Holden Caulfield)And yet mere "sincere guys" we are not. There is a lot more to cool than authenticity. Help me out here guys, my gut tells me we've touched on something important here.

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Subject: The Kingdom, Inc.


Author:
Micah John
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Date Posted: 10:53:52 03/22/02 Fri

I would concur with all of the previous posts (well written as always, Bill) and think that all of us have different areas that are important to us as individuals & Christians, not that I'm right and you're wrong...

I would, however, like to discuss one thing. AK, you stated that "it is not only a personal, individual phenomenon." Now I know that it all depends on how you classify "the Kingdom", but I would argue that if anything, the kindgom is about a person (singular) not a group. Consider this -- politicans have been working to "better government" for years and it almost always seems that the status quo is the grand result of all the time and efforts. Why? People, employees, the workers, managers, the unelected officials.

To tie that to the Church -- Jesus didn't spend his time working with the disciples as a group laying out spreadsheets and flowcharts on "Kingdom Building" (any ever-popluar evangelical word!!! I must apologize for the use.) because he was the leader. Instead, he called out, met, taught, etc... each disciple as an individual. As much as we hate it, the Church is nothing more than the sum of the many parts. I wish that magically, once you walked in the doors or became a member, polictics and theology all came into perfect view. But we all agree, this isn't the case.

This is why, as Adam said, it is ok to be "carefully critical" in the church. The old addage of "one rotten apple can spoil the bunch" applies here. Paul was quick to write that it was encouraged to rid the church of people that taught falsehood under the veil of being Christians themselves. "Grace!" some will cry, or "Judge not or you too shall be judged, and the measure you use will be measured back to you." However, handling this issue is no different than any other major decision we should make -- carefully and wisely diciding by using the intuition and knowedge that God has given each of us.
-MJH
(that reminds me -- Bill, I need to ask you to leave the group based on your last post..... kidding)

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Subject: "Kingdom of God"


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 10:00:23 03/22/02 Fri

I was reading Frizzell's response and it seemed to dawn on me what I thought regarding his thoughts on the "kingdom of God". It is true that Jesus used many examples, like Bill gave. My response then is that it would seem that this kingdom relates to an ATTITUDE.

The argument seems logical when we examine Chad's example of the rich man wanting to follow Jesus and says that he has obeyed the law since he was a boy. Jesus, responds that he must sell everything in order to inherit this kingdom and follow him. The man then proceeds to be disheartened and leave. I would like to argue then that he was not sad because he couldn't control his destiny, but rather because Jesus knew the one thing that this man was clinging to and not ready to give up to the Lord. The argument then could be that not everyone would struggle with giving up earthly things. Perhaps some would struggle giving up loved ones or appearance. The point I am trying to make is that it seems to stem around your attitude. If we truly believe in the kingdom of God and want it more than anything, we will be willing to give ANYTHING up for it! We would leave loved ones, our appearances, our wealth, and everything for it.

If this is true, the other parables seem to make sense. Like the one who sells everything to buy the field or the pearl. Logically then, it would seem that if we do have a total heart for God's "kingdom" that the fruits of the spirit will follow. Only because we are not pursuing our natural sinful nature, but rather doing something unnatural in pursuing the kingdom of God. I don't know if you all buy this, but you could probably look around and figure out that it would not be a popular idea for a person to give up all of their "treasures" in order to pursue this kingdom. Therefore, by pursuing this kind of a kingdom, we become more like Christ. And in turn, fulfill the destiny that Christ meant when the kingdom is also here on earth. Because by becoming more Christ-like, we show a glimpse of what the kingdom of heaven could and will look like.

yeager

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Subject: kingdom


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 05:35:26 03/21/02 Thu

Jon/Micah,

Thanks for your responses...I want to affirm that the kingdom of heaven is in our hearts, but also that it is manifested in other ways. I think that there are social, cultural, political implications for the kingdom. It is not only a personal, individual phenomenon.

I do think it is important to be carefully critical. Especically to see yourself as subject to your own cynicism. In this way, we are all pharisees. But we should still work at reforming our churches and worldviews.

For me, coming out of Taylor "left me cold". I had a real problem with the version of evangelical spirituality that was presented. I was confused and frustrated. I can remember saying, "If this is Christianity, I am not sure I want it." Fortunately, I feel like my post Taylor years offered me an alternative form of spirituality that has been very helpful. This is found in the phrase, "kingdom of heaven". The kingdom represents for me a worldview that doesn't have a sacred/secular distinction. In other words, the redemption of the world is taking place both inside and outside of the church. God's redemptive work can be seen both through the church, in my own heart, in cultural forms, and through political means. Through common grace, God is bringing about his kingdom that is the redemption of the whole cosmos, "For God so loved the cosmos", not for God so loved humanity. These manifestations of redemption in the different spheres represent that the kingdom is actually something that is happening as we speak. It is already, but not yet.

Criticism without a positive formulation is cheap. Anyone can be the gadfly. Its an easy way out. I hope I don't come across that way.

Let me know what you think....

ak

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[> Subject: kingdom


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 19:50:40 03/21/02 Thu

Ah the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God or The Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is the predominant term used in the book of Matthew while the Kingdom of God is used in the rest of The New Testament. There is a debate on whether they are synonomous terms but that is neither here nor there. I am going to go with the Kingdom of God.

Adam posed a couple questions: What is the kingdom? What does it look like? These are difficult questions for modern man. Indeed they were difficult questions for the apostles. I think you will be hard pressed to find a topic that Jesus spoke of so much but seems to be understood so little. However, it is evident that Jesus wanted us to focus our attention on this kingdom.

Why is there so much confusion regarding the subject? It seems that "figuring out" the Kingdom of God has been a source of much consternation for present day Christians. It could be attributable to many things. But I believe that one of them is the method in which Jesus taught. When teaching on the kingdom specifically he never spoke of it in hard themes. He never said "these are the twelve steps to taking part in the kingdom." And, as of yet, I have not seen a book with the title "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Kingdom Dwellers." No, when Jesus spoke of the kingdom he said things like "The Kingdom of God is like a pearl that you sell everything in order to buy." or "It's like a treasure that you hide in field selling everything to buy the field." It's not something that we can master and figure out. Some have tried. There was the rich man that asked Jesus what he must "do" in order get eternal life. Jesus tells him to obey the commandments. He responds by saying that he has. Jesus-seeing this coming a mile away-tells him that if he really wants to be perfect he must sell everything he has and give it to the poor. The text tells us the man left very sad. My guess is the man was sad because the kingdom wasn't something he could contol, only something he could take part in and enjoy.

Then there is the issue of the Kingdom of God "is at hand." (Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15, Luke 10:9) The verb that is translated "is at hand" indicates a past and completed action. Jesus brought the kingdom here for us to take part in now, but, as Adam said, not yet fully. The idea then, that we accept Jesus, just so that we can go to heaven, doesn't seem to mesh. What then would we do with the time we have here on earth? Clearly we are not supposed to live a life of hope deferred. Further, if it is here, and it as valuable as Jesus said it was, then there is more to it than what upset us at Taylor.

To me, the most potent parable about the Kingdom of God is the one where Jesus equates it to a mustard seed. Matthew 13:31. It pervades everything. Work, husbandry, friendships, recreation, etc. As Adam said we take part in the Kingdom when we live and act the way Jesus did in our various disciplines of life.

I believe that when seen The Kingdom this way we can reject the futility of life. No area of life should be seen as futile even if we are not handing out tracks, actively evangelizing, debating athiests, or leading praise choruses.

If the only thing that matters is evangelism then a lot of our lives remain untouched by the Kingdom of God.

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Subject: Distractions


Author:
Micah John
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Date Posted: 18:04:00 03/20/02 Wed

Thanks for your thoughts AK... I too must concur with Jonny Yeager as he states at the end of his post that Christianity is a "condition of the heart". I know that you can cut-and-paste certain portions of the Bible to say that your faith will be shown through works or by your faith, etc.... However, I would say that all this is secondary to the condition of your heart. There are plenty more (not that quantity wins when it comes to the Scriptures, but it is the idea of the whole book) references to the heart and how it influences your mouth, eyes, actions, etc...

Jon, myself, everyone probably agrees that we are not in a position to judge the church and decide what the true for of "church" should be. Do the other forms of church and worship bother me?? Do I see some of the problems discussed in Adam's writtings? Yes, as evident by my thoughts from last week. However, while it IS healty to question and ask like we do on this site, it is not for us to decree which style of church is not our place. I'm not saying that was AK's point, as I know it was not. My point is this; I can not allow myself to be SO distracted by things outside my control or knowledge that it hampers or affect my spiritual life. I did allow it to at TU and I know it was harmful to my spiritual walk. I allowed the "pharisees" to so affect me that I did not grow or learn as I should have -- either way "the kingdom of God" does not win.
-mj

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Subject: ? of Spirituality


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 10:19:03 03/20/02 Wed

Excellent commentary from AK. The main point of the commentary was no doubt the idea of the "kingdom of heaven" and what it would look like in our lives.

I, however, took note of the first part on the commentary of coolguys not being satisfied with the current status quo of "professional Christians" and "bible geeks". I draw issue to this in my own life.

The question I have: Is Christianity dominated by these type of people, and why? Should we all be listening to the Gaither collection on the radio or bobbing for apples every saturday at the church picnic? Should we all be walking around with plastered smiles on our face or wwjd bracelets. Does God really require us to be that "cheesy"? Any true coolguy would emphatically deny that notion, however, we must draw first the argument whether that is the majority or not. And if it is the majority, what does that say about us being the minority? At first glance we would want to brush off the notion and say that is how they interpret what it is to be a Christian. Or possibly the argument could be that Christianity often changes over time with what is in and what is not in.

Also, we must look at the alternative. What often seems to happen in the past, with Christianity, is to do the extreme oposite to prove a point. So instead of plastered smiles and wwjd bracelets one might binge drink, listen to Marilyn Manson, and frown at every known human. This obviously would go too far in proving a point. Also, would or could this possibly have a positive influence on the unbeliever.

The other point that seems clear to me is that we should look atractive to others and be able to relate with them. Perhaps geeks attract geeks; I don't have a problem with that. But what about the average ordinary person at your job who sees you every day? Does your life look attractive to that person? Perhaps that is the real question. Would he or she want to be like you or have a peace like you? There must be a position that calls for the fruits of the Spirit to come forth out of you to attract a person and perhaps not with "cheasy" articles of clothing and forced unnatural behavior.

It appears to me that the best conclusion is the inward testimony of the H.S. We do not know what is in the hearts of these people that we so blatently bash in our minds. We do not know if they are sincere or fake. We do, however, know what is in our own hearts and give witness to that. In other words, I only know what is going on in my heart and have the ability to share it with others. The proof that it is genuine rests in the fact that my H.S. would not conflict the Scriptures in any way. In conclusion, the fruit of the spirit is not, as I see it, "cheasyness" but rather sincerity of heart.

Yeager

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Subject: kingdom


Author:
adam
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Date Posted: 08:14:07 03/20/02 Wed

"There is a kingdom, there is a king, and he lives without, and he lives within."
- Nick Cave and the Heartbreakers

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Subject: Show me the money


Author:
Frizzell
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Date Posted: 09:13:53 03/14/02 Thu

Post college has been a difficult time for me. It has been peppered with pockets of depression, doubt, and anxiety. There are some wonderful things (my wife, my daughter) but by and large these present days are a far cry from the carefree and romatic days of Taylor University. I remember having my faith challenged and nourished by astute professors, chapels, and charitable friends (my recent trip to Steamboat reminded me of this one). After every date with my now wife, Yeager and Konopka would hold a post mortem with me and we would disect and interpret her dialogue and would come to the conclusion that "yes" she did seem to be interested. Life was good. God was evident. I have been vigilantly searching for this since graduation. There have been times of lucidity when I am spurned to love the unlovable and forgive the unforgivable, but by and large I do not "feel" what I felt at our alma mader(sp?). Granted our faith is not a faith that is based on the emotive, but give me something. I guess I want to see the Red Sea parted, I want to see Elijah call down fire to consum the alter and stun the prophets of Baal, I want something to remind me of the story (see Konopka's chapel message).

I came across the following words from C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters and they were a help and a hope to me:

"You must have often wondered why the enemy (God) does not make more use of his power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree he chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the irresistible and the indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of his scheme forbids him to use. Merely to over-ride a human will (as his felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For his ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve....Sooner or later he withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs-to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish...He cannot "tempt" to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away his hand....Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."

Uncle Screwtape



I seem to be living my life right now out of sheer determination instead of being compelled. I do remain faithful but find myself asking, with Jack Nicholson, "What if this is as good as it Gets?" As I read Lewis' words and most of the Bible I am more convinced that our calling is one of perseverence and dedication. Sweat, blood, and tears until the day that we no longer see through a glass darkly.

It was said of the great James Brown that he was "the hardest working man in show business." Let it be said of cool guys that we are the hardest working men in The Kingdom of God.

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[> Subject: Re: Uncle Screwtape


Author:
Yeager
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Date Posted: 14:22:28 03/14/02 Thu

Bill:

Very interesting. Incendently, that is my favorite quote in the Screwtape Letters. Ultimately, I do believe it is the only way to defeat the devil.

As far as "where have all the good times gone?", I have been reading in the O.T. and here is what I have considered: I read how the Israelites one month after crossing the red sea wished to go back to Egypt claiming they had onions, meat, fruits, ect... there. At this point in the reading you might consider the Israelites to have lost their mind. After all, who would want to go back into slavery let alone forget that they crossed through two solid walls of water? If you go on further you see enhanced complaints by them regarding getting mannah and water and again wishing to go back to Egypt.

My whole point is that perhaps the best times are today, assuming we are obeying God. Perhaps all of our view are "the grass is greener". I know when I was in college, all I could think about was wanting not to be poor. Today, I think about how great it would be not to be stressed or perhaps putting a bucket of water leaned up against my freshman neighbors door.

I think the issue for me is accepting mannah today as God's provision. When God provided mannah for the Israelites it was received with thanksgiving. Later, however, it was received with scorn.

The other issue is to consider what you are getting in return with your hardships. Would you be blessed or cursed if God give you a stress-free, rich, and perfect life? Doesn't he say that trials produce perseverence, perseverence character, and character hope? How then could we obtain character and perseverence? Could we obtain it through a book? - I think not. Perhaps then God is doing us a favor by giving us hardships. Perhaps he loves us enough to want to make us effective in our lives and worthy of service to him. I doubt a diamond would look as beautiful if it was dug out from rock and sawdered to your spouses ring without any refining. I also doubt that the life of the apostles was trial-free because God wanted to make their lives difficult.

Only through trials and tribulations will you be the man that God wants you to be. There is no other way. You may not like it, you may go kicking and screaming; but God does have a purpose.

Yeager

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Subject: Emotions


Author:
Micah Hill
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Date Posted: 12:42:57 03/14/02 Thu

Excellent post, Chad. I'm sure that most of us are here on this board, for that very reason -- the fact that our Christian walk has not gotten any easier over the past couple years. The point you bring about lack of "feeling" is something that I struggle to understand. My wife and I have discussions weekly on the subject, and unfortunately for her, it seems to be a big deal to women. My guess is that many of our wives, due to their generally more emotive disposition, struggle in this area.

For several reasons, I always find it difficult to respond to her concerns in this area... any feedback from the group??

-Micah John

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Subject: Prayer


Author:
D.SHRIEVE
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Date Posted: 21:05:30 03/13/02 Wed

Hey hombres,

Just a quick reminder to keep praying for your brothers. You may never know the details or day to day happenings in eachothers lives or even our family's lives, but that's cool. Pray for all kinds of stuff. Even the unknown.

Ephesians 6:18
"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints."

THX
ds

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Subject: West Cost Representation


Author:
Tim Linehan
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Date Posted: 20:41:22 03/13/02 Wed







I heard from Jeremy Burnworth who heard it from someone else, who heard
from somebody else that Shrieve had gotten married. So I had no choice
but to dig up the number for Doug's parents, find out his new
whereabouts and give him a call. Doug referred me to the cool hombres
page and... it is outstanding. I'm gladto be in contact again and look
forward to participating in the dialogue you have all started already.
Further up and further in, my brothers.

A quick summary of the last few years. Two years in Bolivia with the
Peace Corps living out my Walden-esque dream. Fell in love with a
beautiful latina and we have been married for 8 months. We are now
living in Washington state in my home town where we bought a small home
on a plot of land in a semi-rural area. We love it. Sandra (my wife) is
learning English and I am a guidance counselor at an elementary school.
I spend most of my free time reading history of philosophy books to try
and bone up academically to prepare for grad school and am wanting to
get to Talbot in Los Angeles asap for their M.A. in Philosophy of
Religion program and then hopefully go on to study under Dallas Willard
at USC for a doctorate in philosophy. All dreams though, and it will be
a lot of work to get there. But it's nice to finally feel like I have a
grasp on my true vocation.
I can be reached at this address or at timothylinehan@hotmail.com.

thanks for this great page, Doug and Jon!

Peace to all of you,

timothy osprey linehan

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Subject: Importance of Fellowship and Solid Teaching


Author:
Franz Forman
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Date Posted: 13:13:03 03/08/02 Fri

In reading Micah's "thoughts" I am reminded of the value that exists within a Church that is able to provide both solid teaching from the pulpit as well as a Church family that can reach out to the un-churched in our communities.

Our two and a half years in Memphis Tennessee were spent at Bellevue Baptist Church. This Southern Baptist congregation of 27,000 members is led by one of the greatest teachers I have heard- Dr. Adrian Rogers. He consistently delivers the solid truth of the Gospel and compromises no words in the process. Yet, feeling at home here and feeling a growing personal relationship with the Lord was absent. Why? The church family WAS being taught biblical truth and how to fear the Lord, but they were so self-conscious about what was permissable by the Southern Baptist Convention and the Pastor that fear was a primary motivator for decisions on Salvation and church membership. My point- Solid teaching cannot stand on its own as the foundation of the church.

At our current church in Phoenix we recently had an opportunity to hear Brennan Manning, author of the book Ruthless Trust, speak on the importance of approaching God as our Abba Father, not just the omipotent Lord of the Universe. Our Senior Pastor has made a point to biblically present Jesus Christ as the key to our Salvation as a Father figure. As a result, we are encouraged to reach and teach non-believers through love, not fear. This, as you can imagine, has created a positive feeling among the congregation. The small Bible study group that we are in meets together and has fun with fellowship and the study of God's Word. All along, being taught sound Biblical truth that encourages a growing walk with the Lord. Our Sunday messages from Pastor Rick Efird would not be near as impactful to our lives had we not been able to enjoy our personal time with he and his wife watching them live what they preach in a non-church, non-Sunday morning environment.
The point- This fellowship AND solid Biblical teaching has helped my spiritual walk with God become more meaningful than just a strong Sunday morning message preaching on the Sovereignty of the Lord. -FF

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Subject: dogmatic slumbers


Author:
Adam Konopka
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Date Posted: 13:11:51 03/06/02 Wed

Micah...thanks for your posting. It reflected a lot of my same feeling toward churching.

A couple a clarifications that I have... How do we stick to the basics (church doctrine/pillars) while still addressing the needs of the people in the congregation? I obviously don't see a big gap between the two. Ideally, the teachings of the historic tradition of the church are inherently directed toward life as we know it, but in my experience, sometimes there is a gap there.

So when does doctrine become dogma? When does what we herald as the "fundamentals" get put in opposition with love? Which side is better to err?

I feel like I am against all watering down of the gospel, but at the expense of what?

It seems to me that love is the ultimate foundation that all doctrine should be built upon, to use your metaphor. How do we learn/teach/preach/do what is built on love that doesn't forget its foundation?

I will echo the text that you used....act justly...love mercy...walk humbly...this is what the gospel calls us to. It is what Jesus embodied. The kicker is how do we do a sunday school lesson on inerrancy of scripture (to pick one) that does not violate a loving stance toward our neighbor? Or another opposing position, to push it further.


ak

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Subject: Here it is at Last!


Author:
No name
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Date Posted: 18:48:55 03/04/02 Mon

OK Hombres:
In order to use this fine piece of
electronic communication make sure
to follow instruction.

To post: double click POST A NEW
MESSAGE located up top on your right
colored in red. Next enter your name
or a subject in the first rectangle
box.

Type your message and then press send.

Have fun!
ds

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