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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- lanie, 17:32:21 11/14/02 Thu
I've offered criticism on fics onlist before. Knowing the authors were listmembers. I never felt I did it cruelly and pointed out parts of the work I liked. If I didn't like something about the story to begin with, chances are I wouldn't bother thinking about the parts I didn't like. But seriously, if you have something to say about something that was rec'ed, you know speak up. I don't think anyone will really fault you for that providing you can do it respectfully. TWOP badfic thread *was* funny but then again it's not what this list in particular is about, so of course one would hope to avoid that direction, but I don't think anyone should feel as if they can't offer up their thoughts. I've had people disagree with stuff I've rec'ed before. Didn't stop me from liking the story or pointing out what I thought were the finer points of the work.
I do wish there was more discussion. And more Willow/Spike rec'ed okay so I let my personal prefs get wedged in there. *g*
As for this boards purpose? I see it entirely as OT. Personally I don't think we should have to move fic discussions over here at all. If its fic and BtVS/ATS, then it should be allowed to stay onlist. If it gets out of hand, let the mods work their mojo and kill it. I joined the list for the fic quota, and visit this board very rarely indeed.
lanie
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- DeepaD, 19:33:31 11/15/02 Fri
>2) The comments stating "It's a Spike/Spuffy/etc fic.
>What else is there?" See 1) for the
>Universe part.
I've heard complaints about this before, especially on LJs. I think we would all like to have other genres and pairings on the list and the archive, but there isn't much you can do about that except, well, rec them. And also, respond to stories that do get recced. Many recs simply fade away because they aren't seconded or discussed. It's really up to list members, since we aren't trying to influence the flavour of the month.
>3) This board. Since its (well meant I'm sure)
>creation this board has been promoted to us by a
>tad too annoying moderator, but it has no definite
>function. Is it for discussion and OT chatter
>which are now to be taken off the mailing list? Yes
>and no. They can still be posted on the
>mailing list. However the TTA moderator will point you
>to the board and "suggest" you take it
>over there, never mind that if you wanted to
>participate on a BBF message board you wouldn't
>have subscribed to the list. Or perhaps that's just me.
Hm. Well, OT chatter does sometimes get a little inundating, especially if it is about tape sharing, or interview announcements, or any other things that people sometimes feel like sharing. That's why the board was created, and for the record, I wasn't even a mod when that happened! I have been supporting it a little too zealously, but I think I've cut back. I only suggest discussions should move over here when they're getting really spoilery. Otherwise, I don't think I've ever stopped an on-topic discussion. If I have, sorry.
And oh - if you think I'm being annoying, why don't you mail me and let me know what bugs you? I'm supposed to be doing a job here, and if I'm not doing it right, you only have to let me know.
>4) Discussion of fics. Except for the recs discussion
>is so scarce that one might say it's non-
>existent. Presumably, this is due to the fact that the
>authors of the fics are subscribed to the
>group and their tender hearts may be shattered into
>million pieces by hearing something
>negative about their work. At best what one can say is
>"I don't like it, it's not for me". And
>heaven forbid you do say something harsher, then
>you'll become just like the meanies on TWoP.
A lot of what you say is something the list has collectively agree with. I think you've raised valid points, so why not post them to the list? It's definately on topic, and yeah, hardly anyone reads the board, so maybe you'll get some more response, and hopefully, the kind of reaction that you'd like.
peace
Deepa D.
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- lakrids, 15:07:58 11/16/02 Sat
My 25 øre of opinion
>1) The line "I can't believe this hasn't been recced
>before" No! Really? For those in the
>audience who live in a cave here is an interesting bit
>of information. Buffy fandom is huge,
>enormous and vast. It's not a mere fandom is an
>Universe. So if in your corner fic A is THE fic
>in my(his/her/our/their) corner it's not even a bleep
>on the radar. So if you want something
>recced do it yourself but spare us your rightful
>horror.
I will put that comment in “The Pet Pewee” category, yes Buffy Fanfic stories is huge area, but the number of stories, that there are decently written and interesting, is quit small in my highly personal opinion. Which have never hold me back from reading stories that there are only halfway original idea behind and badly written story behind it and even enjoyed some of them. I am sick sick man. I could start with Rec all of stories from TDSOS or Rec all the old Halo award winners etc, and all off them could you write "I can't believe this hasn't been recced before", but I think that most people have read the "I can't believe this hasn't been recced before" stories, so it’s kind off redundant to post a rec for them, I think.
>2) The comments stating "It's a Spike/Spuffy/etc fic.
>What else is there?" See 1) for the
>Universe part.
Don’t you think, it was a semi ironic comment from the poster side?. I kind off hope it was.
>3) This board. Since its (well meant I'm sure)
>creation this board has been promoted to us by a
>tad too annoying moderator, but it has no definite
>function. Is it for discussion and OT chatter
>which are now to be taken off the mailing list? Yes
>and no. They can still be posted on the
>mailing list. However the TTA moderator will point you
>to the board and "suggest" you take it
>over there, never mind that if you wanted to
>participate on a BBF message board you wouldn't
>have subscribed to the list. Or perhaps that's just me.
No it’s not just you, I would like to see discussions of things that there are related to fanfic and writings I think it will make the a live. The moderator could then kick the discussion over here, if the same discussion goes on and on. And on, ( RPF ) or if people began to discus politics etc or asking for a beta reader J.
>4) Discussion of fics. Except for the recs discussion
>is so scarce that one might say it's non-
>existent. Presumably, this is due to the fact that the
>authors of the fics are subscribed to the
>group and their tender hearts may be shattered into
>million pieces by hearing something
>negative about their work. At best what one can say is
>"I don't like it, it's not for me". And
>heaven forbid you do say something harsher, then
>you'll become just like the meanies on TWoP.
I rec a story about 6 posts back, and it got some negative replies, which I knew there would come, because of the subject. That was alright with me, even if I thought that some of the critics missed the point of story, when they speed read the story in justified disgust. Ah well it was not the world best fanfic story anyway.
I also came with some critic of a story, where I didn’t like the writer use of a couple characters. The writer is an ok writer, that would say at least better than 90 % of the writer there out there. But I think that when you public comes out with a recommendation, should you also be prepared defend it public. But the problem with it public is that of course it is public. So about week after did I get a email from the writer, that thought it was a very harsh critic I came with and not correct. The writer tried tell me how he saw the characters interaction, and I tried to defend my view of the characters and critic I had came with, nothing new in that. I still think it was an honest critic I came with. But it was harsher ( a lot ) than I ever would have written, if I was writing the critic directly to the writer. So if I will write a critic of a story on the board again, will I hopefully write it in a way, so that the writer doesn’t feel insulted.
Regards
Lakrids
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- Gyrus, 09:11:23 11/20/02 Wed
>1) The line "I can't believe this hasn't been recced
>before"
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I said this about Michael T.'s THE TRICK CHRONICLES, I did so because (a) the stories are so damn good, and (b) at the time I rec'ed it, the series was well over 2 years old. Given BBF's huge membership, you'd think someone would have spotted it before then.
>2) The comments stating "It's a Spike/Spuffy/etc fic.
>What else is there?" See 1) for the Universe part.
Gotta agree with that one. I'd have to think, too, that if a reader's focus is so narrow, the fics they rec will tend to be of lower quality, simply because they are fishing in a much smaller pond.
>3) This board. Since its (well meant I'm sure)
>creation this board has been promoted to us by a
>tad too annoying moderator, but it has no definite
>function.
It's a bit on the dead side, that's for sure. But discussion boards are like the stock market -- the more people participate, the more value it has.
>4) Discussion of fics. Except for the recs discussion
>is so scarce that one might say it's non-
>existent. Presumably, this is due to the fact that the
>authors of the fics are subscribed to the
>group and their tender hearts may be shattered into
>million pieces by hearing something
>negative about their work.
IMO, the rules for criticizing a story should be the same whether the author is reading the criticism or not -- be honest, specific, and respectful.
-- Gyrus
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- Maquis Leader, 18:43:03 11/21/02 Thu
This caught my attention:
> I could
>start with Rec all of stories from TDSOS or Rec all
>the old Halo award winners etc, and all off them could
>you write "I can't believe this hasn't been recced
>before", but I think that most people have read the "I
>can't believe this hasn't been recced before" stories,
>so it’s kind off redundant to post a rec for them, I
>think.
It isn't redundant because some of us are new to Buffy fic. I've only been reading it for the past few weeks so what is an old hallowed story for you is something I've never even heard of. Please rec for us newbies!
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- Shiver, 16:28:27 11/20/02 Wed
>>In reality, the board is not doing so well, and I’m not sure whether it’s because people members has no use to a community, they’re just here for the recs, period, or because, like you, they are annoyed with the whole concept and would like everything to stay on-list. Anyone would like to give me some help here?<<
This is the first time I've ever been to the board, quite frankly, and I probably won't come again - was only curious about this thread - it's because I'm lazy, and I prefer my discussions to come to me in my email box, and not have to go to a board to find them.
Heck, I wish the fics themselves would come to my box in nice neat format and save my eyes the strain of some of the garish color schemes they're presented in LOL.
Boards take time to visit and they're not as good for lazy people such as myself. You can assume that there's a bunch of people on BBF who tend toward lazy, otherwise, we'd be out finding the good fics ourselves and not counting on recs from others, LOL!
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- Barb, 18:04:19 11/20/02 Wed
The "I can't believe.." and the " is the only one!" stuff can be a little bit annoying, but it's very, very, very minor. I suffer worse annoyances driving to work every morning. I think most people are tongue-in-cheek about #2 anyway.
As for #3, the existence of this board is no skin off my nose. If discussion here picks up, great. If not, well, it's not like I'm being charged for its upkeep or anything.
>4) Discussion of fics. Except for the recs discussion
>is so scarce that one might say it's non-
>existent. Presumably, this is due to the fact that the
>authors of the fics are subscribed to the
>group and their tender hearts may be shattered into
>million pieces by hearing something
>negative about their work. At best what one can say is
>"I don't like it, it's not for me". And
>heaven forbid you do say something harsher, then
>you'll become just like the meanies on TWoP.
As lakrids said, I'd phrase criticism which I knew the author was going to read differently. But knowing the author's going to be reading doesn't change what I say, only how I say it. The main thing that inhibits me from posting is a deep terror of accidentally saying something spoilery and forgetting to put spoiler tags on the post and getting hunted down and skinned by the mods.
The times (all one or two of them) I've gotten involved in a critical discussion on the list I try to give concrete reasons why I don't like a fic or why it's not for me. Otherwise it's not very helpful to other prospective readres or to the author, for that matter. Criticism can hurt, but if it's thoughtful we need to hear it. And if it's not thoughtful, we should be able to get over it. Go on, crush my tender heart. You know you want to!
Barb
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- Riolist, 20:07:16 11/20/02 Wed
Just a couple of comments...
>1) The line "I can't believe this hasn't been recced
>before" No! Really? For those in the
>audience who live in a cave here is an interesting bit
>of information. So if you want something
>recced do it yourself but spare us your rightful
>horror.
I usually take this sentence in one of two ways, depending on who's doing the reccing and what their pushing. :)
For example, in the case of Gyrus' rec of THE TRICK CHRONICLES, I really can't believe that someone hadn't recced that yet given the size of the series and the quality of the writing. Thus, in my mind, the perfect use of the phrase.
However, for the majority of people who pull the "I can't believe" stuff, I see it as their way of saying "Please don't hate me if I'm recommending something that EVERYONE knows about just because I'm not clever/industrious/technologically savvy enough to find it in the bookmarks or archive" and just go on with my life.
>3) This board.
I have to agree with this one. Half the time I forget that the "other" board is out here; the other half, I just don't have time to check it.
>4) Discussion of fics. Except for the recs discussion
>is so scarce that one might say it's non-
>existent.
I would love to see more discussion of fics also, but given the size of the Buffy fandom and sheer number of fics, I see one of the difficulties in getting a good discussion going is that everyone is reading different things at different times.
I'm not sure if this has been suggested before (I'll admit it, I'm too lazy to check past messages), but maybe we could do more of a formal book club thing and choose a fic to read and discuss on a weekly basis.
Also... I'd like to add one more annoying thing and a couple of things that don't annoy me.
Keeping with the numbering thing:
5) The bookmarks/links arranged by size. While I appreciate the difficulty in coming up with a method of organization, I often feel frustrated after searching for something within those folders when I have no clue as to the size of what I'm looking for. When I'm looking for something to read, I'm more likely to want to look for a certain genre, character, time frame, etc. than a short, medium or long fic.
And a couple of things that are not so annoying...
A) The time and effort put into the list and the archive but the BBF Powers That Be. This is one of the better, if not the best, lists I've been a member of and I appreciate that you all have spent so much of your time to make it so.
B) The "community events" such as "Pimp yourself" day (or whatever it was called) and the New Author search. Although, come to think of it, I'm not sure if the second one ever got off the ground. In any case, they were both clever ideas to get more people to participate.
Hmmmm...for a person who never uses the board, I certainly seem to have said a lot. :)
-Riolist
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- julesumr, 00:14:25 11/21/02 Thu
I'd like to address some of the issues relating to why I personally do not discuss recs, under the assumption that perhaps these reasons are shared by others.
1. I'm a lurker. I lurk. It is what I do. I think this may be the first thing I've sent to this particular group, ever.
2. If I don't like the story, I'm probably not going to finish it, and therefore don't feel qualified to comment.
3. If I do like the story, I'll probably be too happy to have found something I liked to remember to come back here and "second" it, and if I do, I'll probably find someone else already has.
4. This one may only pertain to me. You see, I'm an engineering student, so several of the more "artsy" stories (not making fun of artsy, I just don't usually understand things that don't involve some level of math... I'm a nerd) confuse me. The only thing I'd have to say is "I don't get it," and pride pretty much stops that one from happening.
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in on the annoying things about the list. Personally, I like it overall. I get to lurk and read stories I probably wouldn't find by myself.
-Jules
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- Robert, 07:36:09 11/21/02 Thu
>4) Discussion of fics. Except for the recs discussion
>is so scarce that one might say it's non-
>existent. Presumably, this is due to the fact that the
>authors of the fics are subscribed to the
>group and their tender hearts may be shattered into
>million pieces by hearing something
>negative about their work.
Personally, I'd like to hear my fic discussed.
I might not like everything I heard, but I suspect I'd learn more than I do from most of my reviews.
Half the reason I'm not discussing fics is because no one else is. Whatever the original purpose of the list, discussion doesn't seem to be part of its current culture.
If we did discuss fics we might find it difficult to draw the line there. What we think of, say, a season six Spike-centred fic depends heavily on what we think of season six Spike. It would be easy to drift into discussing the show itself, which could produce vigorous debate.
Of course, if people want to discuss fics I'll join in.
It should be interesting, sa long as it doesn't get too rancorous.
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Re: Things that annoy me about BetterBuffyFics -- smash, 14:04:56 12/19/02 Thu
>>Disclaimer: These are my thoughts illogical as they may be.<<
I love free speech.
The few times I have ever posted to the list have been because a fic motivated me enough--positively or negatively--to comment about it. I never just say, "I sixth this rec!" because that seems annoyingly redundant. If 19 people have recommended it, why do I need to pipe up? Unless 19 people have recommended a fic that has some serious, obvious or otherwise bothersome flaw to it, I'll offer my feedback directly to the author.
I actually enjoy the discussions of recommended pieces as much as, if not more than, reading Buffy and Angel fic.
I've told myself that I should check these boards more frequently. I *liked* the hot discussion about real people fic that seemed to create the initial drive to start these boards. I *like* to hear multiple opinions and points of view. I love looking for strengths and weaknesses in works of fiction, be it the show itself or the fanfic. But, hey, I'm one of the meanies on TWoP, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
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