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| Subject: I don't wish to be unkind, but... | |
Author: Ed Harris (London) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 23:46:25 01/05/05 Wed In reply to: Jim (Canada) 's message, "Flags at the Scottish Parliament" on 14:25:29 01/05/05 Wed ... I have seldom heard such arrant nonsense in my life, Andrew, and I am a regular attendant at the Conservatives' Party Conference! You seem to suggest that it is somehow hypocritical to be in favour of Commonwealth federation but against European federation. Why? Just because I like my dog doesn't mean that I like all dogs. My partiality for my fiancee doesn't imply that I like all fiancees on principle - it's a question of compatibility. Look here, I'm prepared to bet my mortgage that I'm more Europeanised than any poster on this forum: I have lived in Europe, studied in Europe, worked in Europe, most of my friends are European and I speak a disquieting number of European languages; I haven't eaten any stodgy Anglo-Saxon food since I left boarding school and I wouldn't be seen dead in British shoes. And yet that doesn't mean that I am European, any more than dressing up as a woman would make me a woman. I am British, and if we are going to form one super-country with a lot of other countries, then it will not work unless the inhabitants of those countries are also British (see "Yugoslavia": it's in Britannica). I stand loud and proud and declare, "I am a Federalist!", but that doesn't mean that my allergy to the EU is inconsistent with my beliefs just because the EU project is federal. Get with the programme, dude. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: Flagz | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 15:45:41 01/06/05 Thu "You seem to suggest that it is somehow hypocritical to be in favour of Commonwealth federation but against European federation. Why?" I didn't say that, I said it's hypocritical to complain about no Union Jack, but then complain about the EU flag, or then complain about the Scotch flag being up there in the first place. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Look here, old boy... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:32:40 01/06/05 Thu If you call the Scots "scotch" then it is clear that you know as much about the place as undiscovered tribes in the Amazon with bones through their noses know about the bisexual imagery in the novels of Yukio Mishima. And anyway, the flags themselves aren't the problem, it's what they represent, innit? If you define yourself as European, you'll want the EU logo all over the place. If you define yourself as British, you'll want the Union Flag. If you define yourself as Scottish, then naturally you'll want St Andrew's saltire draped on public buildings. And, when this is turned on its head, we see a concomitant hostility towards certain flags depending on one's self-definition. Since the constitution of the UK precludes an independent Scottish identity, then someone who defines himself as Scottish will not like the Jack. Since the ambition of the EU is to end the independent identity of Britain, then someone who defines himself as British will not like that ring of stars thing, hereinafter to be known as the EuroLogo. Since the intransigence of the EU's constituent nations, especially the UK, is standing in the way of the European Project, then someone who defines himself as European will naturally feel uncomfortable with the Union Flag. It's quite simple, really. Hypocrisy doesn't enter into it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: europeanis | |
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Author: andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:45:38 01/06/05 Thu "It's quite simple, really. Hypocrisy doesn't enter into it." "If you define yourself as British, you'll want the Union Flag. If you define yourself as Scottish, then naturally you'll want St Andrew's saltire draped on public buildings." And if you define yourself as European etc etc That's what I mean. One or two people actually do. I consider myself "European", but not in that sense. I am culturally European, but I don't support the EU. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Whereas... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:10:48 01/06/05 Thu I would say that I am European by race and geography only. I don't think that there is a European culture - rather lots of cultures which, through proximity, have more in common than they do with cultures which evolved far away. A Spaniard has more culturally in common with a Dane than he does with a Thai, but this does not mean that he has the same culture as a Dane. What the FCS is about is uniting four countries whose cultures are so close as to make them virtually identical: not exactly identical, of course, but more similar than, say, British culture with Greek culture. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: media | |
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Author: andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:19:25 01/06/05 Thu "I would say that I am European by race and geography only. I don't think that there is a European culture - rather lots of cultures which, through proximity, have more in common than they do with cultures which evolved far away. A Spaniard has more culturally in common with a Dane than he does with a Thai, but this does not mean that he has the same culture as a Dane. " I don't think there is either. But I think it is mythological to talk about much of a Commonwealth culture these days, if it's there it's insubstantial. British culture? Well they've tried their damndest to create one... but all I see is a BBC which fills its comedy shows with anti-Welsh jokes, and stereotyped Scots, not to mention various English "provincials" being similarly portrayed in the media. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Scotch is whisky, Scots are people of Scotland | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:43:46 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: Flags | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:11:21 01/06/05 Thu I see no problem with St Andrew's Saltire flying proudly in the wind over the Scottish Parliament - no more than I would have a problem with Gibraltar's flag waving over the Rock. The Union flag next to those two says more than it does alone - it says "Scotland is United within the United Kingdom" or "Gibraltar is proud to be a dependant of the UK" rather than "This is the UK or a captured territory thereof and nothing more." [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Our situation | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:56:37 01/06/05 Thu We have three flags flying in official places - the Ontario ensign, the Canadian maple leaf and the Union Jack. The first two are obvious, but we are not part of the UK. The Union Jack flies to show our allegiance to the Crown. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: I presume that varies throughout Canada? | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:21:31 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Well, exacttly. The Canadian Flag is enhanced by its neighbours. | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:42:15 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: Varying flags across Canada | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:31:35 01/06/05 Thu Obviously I was only talking about Ontario because that is where I live. Each province has its own Provincial flag. But in each province the different provincial flags are flown along with the Canadian flag and the Union Jack, except in Quebec ofcourse. Right now, the Canadian flag is missing in Newfoundland. I am lucky that in Ontario, and also in Manitoba, the provincial flag is a red ensign, so you see the Union Jack twice - in the Provincial flag and on its own. The Canadian flag is the only one without the Union Jack. Even the City of Toronto flag is red, white and blue. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Must have looked great with three UNion Jacks... we only get one ;-) | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:30:45 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: We never had three Union Jacks - only two | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 12:19:23 01/07/05 Fri The Ontario and Manitoba red ensigns were adopted AFTER the change of the Canadian flag as a reaction to it. So, we had the Canadian Red Ensign and the Union Jack until 1965 and then the Ontario Red Ensign, the Maple Leaf Flag and the Union Jack since 1965. Nevertheless, two Union Jacks, as is the current case also in places such as the Cayman Islands and Bermuda, still looks better than one, even if one of the Union Jacks is smaller and in the top left corner of an ensign. I believe Australia and New Zealand do not fly the whole Union Jack any more, but have it in the corner of their national flags. The Union Jack is really the CANZUK flag as well as the UK flag because it appears in all parts of CANZUK in some form. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |