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| Subject: Flags at the Scottish Parliament | |
Author: Jim (Canada) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 14:25:29 01/05/05 Wed Three flags fly outside the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh - the St. Andrew Saltire, the EU flag and the Union Jack. An article in today's paper about lowering flags to half mast for Tsunami victims (this is also being done in Canada) mentioned this. So, it is good news that the Union Jack is definitely flying at the Scottish Parliament. The Nationalists have not succeeded in getting rid of it. Now, hopefully, someone can aim to get rid of that EU flag. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| [> Subject: Ha, Well... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:08:21 01/05/05 Wed Jim, you wouldn't believe the debacle surrounding the flag issue at Holyrood. In any sensible country, you would expect to see the national flag, and the state/provincial flag alongside (i.e. the Union Flag and Saltire). However, in Scotland the story so far goes as follows: Firstly, when the Scottish Parliament was completed, five flag poles were erected to display any combination of flags you could think of, as well as any courtesy flags for visiting dignitaries. However, this merely provoked a lengthy discussion as to which flags should be displayed, as Westminster guidelines dictate that the Union flag be flown on specific days, although they do not specify which, if any flag, should be flown permanently. The SNP were outraged that the Saltire was not flown automatically, so the executive agreed that the Union Flag, Saltire and EU flag (no doubt to curry favour with the grant giving bodies of Brussels, their regional spiritual masters) should be flown permanently, to please everyone. Perhaps, but after the SNP described this as a “victory for Scotland” they proceeded to claim the measures did not go far enough. Yes, you guessed it; they want the Saltire to be the ONLY flag flying among the five flagpoles. One wonders whether they wanted a sole Saltire flying amongst naked poles, or whether they wanted an array of identical flags, analogous to a White House press conference. However, the Parliament agreed on the three flags, which left the question of what to do with the remaining two flagpoles. Well, the obvious resolution to this problem was to spend even more taxpayers’ money removing the two additional flagpoles from the site. So now we have three flagpoles, five spotlights and two temporary flagpoles, for visiting dignitaries. Only in Scotland… [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: about that EU flag... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:22:41 01/05/05 Wed I wish I could promise to do something about that during my next visit to Edinburgh. However, I fear the flagpoles are too high and the security too tight, even for me... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Double standards again... | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:04:21 01/05/05 Wed You complain about the EU flag yet want to remove the Union flag? You're doing what you preach against. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: Eh? | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 21:35:03 01/05/05 Wed I don't believe that anyone here would want to remove the Union Flag, perhaps you should read my post again... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: Flagz II | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 15:49:00 01/06/05 Thu "I don't believe that anyone here would want to remove the Union Flag, perhaps you should read my post again..." Perhaps I should have rewritten the post! I meant that you guys seem to want to remove the European Union flag, but object to the British Union flag being taken down. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Right... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:02:44 01/06/05 Thu Yes, but there is a fundamental difference. The UK is a nation whereas the EU is not (yet!) Besides, as Ed pointed out, we have very different positions on these flags, as they represent different things entirely (i.e the union of British people versus the union of European people) [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: UK... | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:07:29 01/06/05 Thu No Dave, the UK is NOT a nation. It is a collection of nations, this is why you have various *national* bodies for Scotland and Wales (notably sports, but including arts councils etc). The danger with the EU is when it does just this... it may claim to be some kind of nation in the future, with just as much lack of legality behind it. The EU will merely be doing what the UK did. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Dear God | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:22:55 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Dear God what? | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:24:18 01/06/05 Thu Many unionists in different parts of Britain consider themselves to belong to different nations. What's wrong with that? Why is it incompatible with being in the UK? Why the big need to get rid of nations and cultures? Isn't this what we hear people say the EU intends to do? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The British are a single people | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:37:29 01/06/05 Thu Britain is a nation, forged from three others. I am a British nationalist, proub of my nation (Britain). I also happen to be Welsh. Germany was made up of different nations, but thye are nited now as one nation, the smae can be said for the UK. Have you never heard politicians refer to THE nation? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: nations | |
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Author: andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:39:44 01/06/05 Thu "Have you never heard politicians refer to THE nation?" Yes. And sometimes they do it referring to England alone. Both usages are to be heard. I don't see why the English have a problem being a nation... why not? A happy union of nations sounds better than an unhappy union of denied ones. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The FCS promotes a federal ideal... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:21:50 01/06/05 Thu ...which would encourage Scottish/English/Welsh/NI identity within the union. The constituent parts of the UK, and potentially FC would have identities just as strong as they have today. You do not need legal nationhood to have identity. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The UK and the FC would be similar | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:11:50 01/06/05 Thu The FC would actually be just an expanded UK. Instead of a union of just England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, we would add Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Seven instead of four (and potentially more). Then, we would complete devolution by making the whole thing a federation with national parliaments for all and a federal parliament for the whole union. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: When I say that... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:42:40 01/06/05 Thu ... I am amazed to hear the UK defined as something other than a nation. It is a nation with four countries in it, or, alternatively, a country with four nations in it. However you muck about with the words, it has one head of state, a central parliament and civil service, one army, one navy, once air force, one seat at the UN, ditto NATO. There are, I concede, many people who wish that this were not the case, but until Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and the SNP get their way, we're just going to have to live with it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: nations ii | |
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Author: andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:41:56 01/06/05 Thu Do you think that the Scottish and Welsh football and rugby teams etc should be abolished by law? When is a nation not a nation? The Soviet Union wasn't one. The Spanish aren't one. You could make good cases the same way for India, and certainly the west of "China" [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ahem | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:18:30 01/06/05 Thu Spain IS a nation, it just happens to include people within its borders who disagree. Tibet and Sianking are ntaions that happened to be ruledby another (same with basque and other minor palces in Spain), this does not stop China from being a nation, you could say though that itisnt a nation-state. Oh and BTW I would like to see the Welsh and Scottish sports teams abolished. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: sports teams etc | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:21:37 01/06/05 Thu The Catalans and Basques are nations... "Oh and BTW I would like to see the Welsh and Scottish sports teams abolished." I'd like to see you try. Then you'd see democracy in action. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Indeed | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:26:30 01/06/05 Thu I dont dney Basques and Catalans are ANtions, but thats no reason to deny Spain its nationhood. Like China you could say it isnt a nation-state. And yes a refferendum to megre the sports temas would fail miserably. But its something to consider for the future. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: So that's why it took so long... | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:29:31 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: ... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:25:44 01/05/05 Wed Well yes, that in addition to the fact that the flagpoles themselves were architect designed, each of varying thinness and length, and fashioned from rare isotopes. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: How baout suggesting the Commonwealth flag on one of those two spare poles? | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:33:34 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: I am just glad and relieved that the Union Jack made it to a permanent place there | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:35:45 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> Subject: What about the Welsh assembly? What flags fly there? | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:55:27 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> Subject: Slight double standards... | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:02:08 01/05/05 Wed "The Nationalists have not succeeded in getting rid of it. Now, hopefully, someone can aim to get rid of that EU flag" That's a bit hypocritical. Scotland's as much part of the European Union as United Kingdom, and moves to extricate it from the EU would be in themselves "nationalist" or even "separatist"... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: no | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:14:25 01/05/05 Wed Actualy it is more part of the UK than the EU. Its part of the UK, but Scotland is not a member of the EU as such, the UK is a member, Scotland just happnes to be part of the UK. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: The UK is in the EU... | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:18:13 01/05/05 Wed No it's not Owain, it is a part of the UK and a part of the EU. "Scotland is not a member of the EU as such" Scotland is in the EU. Like the Catalans are in the EU. "Scotland just happnes to be part of the UK." The UK just happens to be part of the EU. Whether you or I like it or not. And no I'm not what you might term a "Europhile". [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: Then why not fly the Commonwealth flag as well - the UK is part of the Commonwealth! | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:17:49 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: I think there's a legitimate argument for that... | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:26:14 01/05/05 Wed Yes Scotland is in the Commonwealth... it plays in the games etc... so there is an argument for that. However to complain about Scot nats trying to undo one union while you're trying to do another union... well some serious questions have to be asked there. Some Scot nats use the same arguments Eurosceptics use. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: I agree, I support the UK, but I oppose the UK's membership in the EU | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:55:41 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The UK and the EU are both unions in the end, and both have their detractors and supporters | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:27:33 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: By the same token, a Commonwealth Union is just a union and can easily be established | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:19:11 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Commonwealth flag on Scottish Parliament? | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:03:08 01/05/05 Wed It would be nice gesture, particularly given the role of Scots in the Commonwealth. However, I doubt whether most members of the Scottish Parliament could spell commonwealth, let alone understand its significance in terms other than an instrument of English imperialism. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: arrgh, wrong section - this is a reply to you Jim... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:06:17 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: Scots had a huge role in building Canada for which I am grateful. Thank you Scotland | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:08:21 01/05/05 Wed [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: Tell that to the Scots fishermen | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 21:42:42 01/05/05 Wed Whom I'm quite sure would be happy to be branded nationalists in order to get their livelyhoods back... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Wrong kind of nat | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 15:47:18 01/06/05 Thu "Whom I'm quite sure would be happy to be branded nationalists in order to get their livelyhoods back..." I'm talking about BRITISH nationalists, not Scots nats. There are several Scottish independence parties against the EU. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> Subject: I don't wish to be unkind, but... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 23:46:25 01/05/05 Wed ... I have seldom heard such arrant nonsense in my life, Andrew, and I am a regular attendant at the Conservatives' Party Conference! You seem to suggest that it is somehow hypocritical to be in favour of Commonwealth federation but against European federation. Why? Just because I like my dog doesn't mean that I like all dogs. My partiality for my fiancee doesn't imply that I like all fiancees on principle - it's a question of compatibility. Look here, I'm prepared to bet my mortgage that I'm more Europeanised than any poster on this forum: I have lived in Europe, studied in Europe, worked in Europe, most of my friends are European and I speak a disquieting number of European languages; I haven't eaten any stodgy Anglo-Saxon food since I left boarding school and I wouldn't be seen dead in British shoes. And yet that doesn't mean that I am European, any more than dressing up as a woman would make me a woman. I am British, and if we are going to form one super-country with a lot of other countries, then it will not work unless the inhabitants of those countries are also British (see "Yugoslavia": it's in Britannica). I stand loud and proud and declare, "I am a Federalist!", but that doesn't mean that my allergy to the EU is inconsistent with my beliefs just because the EU project is federal. Get with the programme, dude. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: Flagz | |
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Author: Andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 15:45:41 01/06/05 Thu "You seem to suggest that it is somehow hypocritical to be in favour of Commonwealth federation but against European federation. Why?" I didn't say that, I said it's hypocritical to complain about no Union Jack, but then complain about the EU flag, or then complain about the Scotch flag being up there in the first place. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Look here, old boy... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:32:40 01/06/05 Thu If you call the Scots "scotch" then it is clear that you know as much about the place as undiscovered tribes in the Amazon with bones through their noses know about the bisexual imagery in the novels of Yukio Mishima. And anyway, the flags themselves aren't the problem, it's what they represent, innit? If you define yourself as European, you'll want the EU logo all over the place. If you define yourself as British, you'll want the Union Flag. If you define yourself as Scottish, then naturally you'll want St Andrew's saltire draped on public buildings. And, when this is turned on its head, we see a concomitant hostility towards certain flags depending on one's self-definition. Since the constitution of the UK precludes an independent Scottish identity, then someone who defines himself as Scottish will not like the Jack. Since the ambition of the EU is to end the independent identity of Britain, then someone who defines himself as British will not like that ring of stars thing, hereinafter to be known as the EuroLogo. Since the intransigence of the EU's constituent nations, especially the UK, is standing in the way of the European Project, then someone who defines himself as European will naturally feel uncomfortable with the Union Flag. It's quite simple, really. Hypocrisy doesn't enter into it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: europeanis | |
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Author: andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:45:38 01/06/05 Thu "It's quite simple, really. Hypocrisy doesn't enter into it." "If you define yourself as British, you'll want the Union Flag. If you define yourself as Scottish, then naturally you'll want St Andrew's saltire draped on public buildings." And if you define yourself as European etc etc That's what I mean. One or two people actually do. I consider myself "European", but not in that sense. I am culturally European, but I don't support the EU. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Whereas... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (London) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:10:48 01/06/05 Thu I would say that I am European by race and geography only. I don't think that there is a European culture - rather lots of cultures which, through proximity, have more in common than they do with cultures which evolved far away. A Spaniard has more culturally in common with a Dane than he does with a Thai, but this does not mean that he has the same culture as a Dane. What the FCS is about is uniting four countries whose cultures are so close as to make them virtually identical: not exactly identical, of course, but more similar than, say, British culture with Greek culture. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: media | |
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Author: andrew [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:19:25 01/06/05 Thu "I would say that I am European by race and geography only. I don't think that there is a European culture - rather lots of cultures which, through proximity, have more in common than they do with cultures which evolved far away. A Spaniard has more culturally in common with a Dane than he does with a Thai, but this does not mean that he has the same culture as a Dane. " I don't think there is either. But I think it is mythological to talk about much of a Commonwealth culture these days, if it's there it's insubstantial. British culture? Well they've tried their damndest to create one... but all I see is a BBC which fills its comedy shows with anti-Welsh jokes, and stereotyped Scots, not to mention various English "provincials" being similarly portrayed in the media. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Scotch is whisky, Scots are people of Scotland | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:43:46 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> Subject: Flags | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:11:21 01/06/05 Thu I see no problem with St Andrew's Saltire flying proudly in the wind over the Scottish Parliament - no more than I would have a problem with Gibraltar's flag waving over the Rock. The Union flag next to those two says more than it does alone - it says "Scotland is United within the United Kingdom" or "Gibraltar is proud to be a dependant of the UK" rather than "This is the UK or a captured territory thereof and nothing more." [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Our situation | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:56:37 01/06/05 Thu We have three flags flying in official places - the Ontario ensign, the Canadian maple leaf and the Union Jack. The first two are obvious, but we are not part of the UK. The Union Jack flies to show our allegiance to the Crown. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: I presume that varies throughout Canada? | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:21:31 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> Subject: Well, exacttly. The Canadian Flag is enhanced by its neighbours. | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:42:15 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> Subject: Varying flags across Canada | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:31:35 01/06/05 Thu Obviously I was only talking about Ontario because that is where I live. Each province has its own Provincial flag. But in each province the different provincial flags are flown along with the Canadian flag and the Union Jack, except in Quebec ofcourse. Right now, the Canadian flag is missing in Newfoundland. I am lucky that in Ontario, and also in Manitoba, the provincial flag is a red ensign, so you see the Union Jack twice - in the Provincial flag and on its own. The Canadian flag is the only one without the Union Jack. Even the City of Toronto flag is red, white and blue. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Must have looked great with three UNion Jacks... we only get one ;-) | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:30:45 01/06/05 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> Subject: We never had three Union Jacks - only two | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 12:19:23 01/07/05 Fri The Ontario and Manitoba red ensigns were adopted AFTER the change of the Canadian flag as a reaction to it. So, we had the Canadian Red Ensign and the Union Jack until 1965 and then the Ontario Red Ensign, the Maple Leaf Flag and the Union Jack since 1965. Nevertheless, two Union Jacks, as is the current case also in places such as the Cayman Islands and Bermuda, still looks better than one, even if one of the Union Jacks is smaller and in the top left corner of an ensign. I believe Australia and New Zealand do not fly the whole Union Jack any more, but have it in the corner of their national flags. The Union Jack is really the CANZUK flag as well as the UK flag because it appears in all parts of CANZUK in some form. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |