Question, due to our crap ep linkage -- Season Eight Fanfic Discussion

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, [2], 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 15:47:07 06/02/03 Mon
Author: BunnyPhobia
Subject: Question, due to our crap ep linkage

Actually, its more my fault as opposed to wyvy's - I shoulda asked MissTara AGGGGEEESSSS ago what went on in her ep.

ANYHOO - Kash and Everyone, would it be a good idea for myself and Wyvy to add/alter a couple of scenes that added info about Faith and Spike's little adventure and the 'false' Giles..cos it seems to be pissing people off, as is understandable, and I, personally, don't really want to do that (I would think Wyvy would agree with me, though I haven't discussed it with her, but we tend to think alike on most things)...

I don't mind being criticised on the actual plot (hehe *veg*) but on the actual structure and placing of the ep as a whole..well, it bothers me that I let mixup happen in the first place (note to self - must learn to count)..

So, guys, what do you think? Cos Connected was, kinda...not connected, really *blush*

~BP

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Hmm..... -- Kashmanik, 16:26:09 06/02/03 Mon

My problem then would be that Mark is planning on addressing the issues of Spike and Faith vanishing, and the Ethan-Giles situation.

Which I prefer, actually.... just like ME, we don't have to wrap up everything in one episode, we can just provide explanations later on.

Besides, in Episodes 16 there was very little opportunity for long explanations, since they were in the midst of a crisis, and 17 wasn't exactly the perfect place for filling in plot gaps!

I'd say leave it to Mark in Ep18 (we're relying on you now Mark!)

Don't worry, once the season's complete, it'll all make perfect sense.

And if not, I'm changing my email address and phone numbers and moving to Spain to avoid your wrath. :-)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Hey, that's cool. Mark (poor guy) I don't envy you! -- BunnyPhobia, 16:56:47 06/02/03 Mon

And good that it'll all be addressed, cos, hey, not liking the criticism. I can take the 'you made Xander a murderer you said fucks' and 'you're all gay' (part gay, actually, as Wyvy was going to point out)...but like I said, the actual criticsm that rose from an actual misunderstanding bugs me.

But, hey, mark, take it away (and, I dunno, make it seem DELIBERATE that it hasn't been addressed as of yet *g*)..

We're nearly at the end of our season! Yay!!

And boo.

~BP

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> lol you know what I don't get? -- Mark, 00:34:48 06/03/03 Tue

I was adding the scene at the end where Amy was laughing to my "Previously On...." segment. Did the people not finish the episode or something?!? haha it's very clear Amy is STILL ALIVE so why do people think he's a murderer!? lol oh well... i guess it's good people are passionate about the fanfic.

haha we just have to make sure the Xander fanatics and Faith/Spike fanatics don't all come after us!

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> Yes I do address it in my episode, but I have an idea.... -- Mark, 20:20:12 06/02/03 Mon

There's a nice Buffy/Spike scene where they talk about what's going on and he reassures her that nothing happened, and then at the same time the group questions Faith back at the house on whether she not had sex with him, that's (hopefully) pretty funny.

I just can't figure out why it wouldn't be addressed by now, you know? What if you just added one scene in the beginning taking place right where the episode left off, where Spike asks what is going on, but before anyone can get a response Giles suggests going to check out the Hellmouth because the firefighters and cops probably left the scene by then.

Then, with all the drama with Xander, naturally it wouldn't be appropriate to bring it up. I know it's not something ME would do, but this is just a regular human error and I think in fairness to you, Bunnyphobia and Wyvern, I think you should add one scene in the beginning.
I hate people saying, "I would have liked this episode a lot more but all I kept thinking about was why it isn't resolving any questions." Regardless on whether or not I add anything, people are still going to be bothered by the fact that it wasn't addressed right away. People who read the season aren't going to know there was a mistake, you know? Just so the episode makes sense I really think you should just add one scene in the beginning and I'll address it to a larger extent.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> As the writer of ep 15, can I put in my opinion? -- imisstara, 20:42:59 06/02/03 Mon

Hi, everyone! I sometimes include my email when i leave messages on the C&S board, and believe it or not I've actually gotten a few emails from Spike and Faith fans wanting to know what happened! To me, it's not that the questions were left unresolved. I think it's fine if they're left unresolved, 'Buffy' does it all the time.

The problem is that the beginning of the episode just doesn't really make any sense when you read it after my episode, you know? That's a totally different thing than ambiguity. It almost seems like my episode didn't happen, which is kinda sad. And again, of course it's no one's fault, but it's less of an ME "let's be mysterious" trick and more of a simple mistake that happens.

So, I think it would be nice to add one scene before the craziness starts and also add just a few lines from my episode into the "Previously On" section, cause why wouldn't episode 15 be in that, you know?

That's my opinion. I don't think it's fair to Bunnyphobia or Wyvern for people to critize the episode for something like that, so I think if we do it people can realize the greatness that it is! Debate Xander's development, Kennedy's motivation, or Proserpexa's plan, but it seems unfair for the writers for people to be hung up on that. Especially cause it will only take like 10 minutes to fix!

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Yep, my bad with the previously on bit..... :-) -- Kashmanik, 07:58:42 06/03/03 Tue

I wrote that segment before airing, and really just chose scenes that were necessary to the episode - such as Amy's backstory, some info on Proserpexa, and Xander threatening Amy with the gun in Ep11.

Yes, I should have added some Ep15 stuff, and I apologise. :-)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> No prob :) -- imisstara, 11:51:19 06/03/03 Tue

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> So were all gay now -- That one Guy, 06:08:33 06/03/03 Tue

I don't think I can do this, no offense but Eliza Dushku, not and I don't want to be either, oh well. Atleast we got respond to this episode, feeling more like ME everyday, so then since Kashy joss, who's going to take the role of Marti? any voloteers?

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> *Ahem* I'm not ALL gay *g* -- Wyvern, 20:49:33 06/03/03 Tue

Anyone who's ever seen my choices of Bot on the GMT would know that I'm only *part* gay :p

Or is it just that I'm not fussy? Or possibly greedy? I dunno *g*

In fairness to the points raised, yes, it would probably be an idea to put a little something at the beginning but I'm not sure how the question of adding the amendments would be addressed. I personally would like a little more exposition to go into why the raising of the temple didn't immediately bring about apocalypse (1. because Prossieknickers was a bit knackered after all that mind control and temple raising and 2. because there needed to be some story left for the rest of the season...). In fact, it's already in MY version!

Yes, the previously could have used something from ep 15. Our bad :(

There doesn't really seem to be a good place, other than at the beginning, to go into what Spike and Faith were doing in 15, cos they're not really key to the plot in 16, but I do think that it's going to be looked at more fully before the season's out. But maybe a nod to that would have been a good thing.

But really, I think that's as much as we should do to it. We could revisit it time after time and we'd end up overworking it. People might be pissed off with us now, but I'd rather that than produce something that's so over-worked that the only reaction is "meh". Plus, it's important NOT to wrap eveything up too quickly, that starts to smack a little of deus ex machina and it doesn't help continuity on a macro scale. Certainly on the issue of episode 15-16 continuity, we were a bit pants. We covered the book, but that's about it. But in terms of the wider picture, we picked up threads from earlier in the season that had been left dangling for a few episodes (and in some cases, a couple of seasons, lol).

Whatever. If people think that amendments at either end of the episode are a good idea, then I don't think BP and I will have a problem with that. We didn't intentionally set out to piss people off... but on the other hand, it's really cool that people have reacted this strongly to it... I actually think it's a sign that we're doing something right.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> I wrote my episode but left it so that it would be very easy for you to... -- Mark, 21:20:58 06/03/03 Tue

...add something in if you wanted in the beginning or end or wherever, cause i wasn't sure which way you were going with that. Like imisstara said, it's not even that the points aren't brought up, it's kinda more that the beginning doesn't really make sense in the scope of things.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> You air tomorrow, don't you? -- Wyvern, 21:27:03 06/03/03 Tue

I really can't wait to see your episode :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Yes I air tomorrow. Thanks :) I hope everyone likes it! -- Mark, 21:45:49 06/03/03 Tue

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> hi Mark..... -- Kashmanik, 22:07:04 06/03/03 Tue

Sorry I didn't email back, hotmail's being a bitch!

Just wanted to say that I thought your ep was great, sets up the last few episodes of the season perfectly. Well done!

Episode info, just so everyone knows:

EPISODE 18 - MARK
EPISODE 19 - JSLAYERUK
EPISODE 20 - KASHMANIK
EPISODE 21 - LINDA_DELURKED

Then, after Linda's ep goes out, I'll announce details on the C&S on how our readers can vote for the finale writer! :-)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok, thanks! -- Mark, 22:25:09 06/03/03 Tue

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> Hmmm - so are we or aren't we? -- BunnyPhobia, 21:33:21 06/03/03 Tue

Love the debate and all, but...

Myself and Wyvy could throw together a scene between the first xander chase scene and the scene at the house...Which will actually explain where Faith and Spike ARE and why Giles can't get hold of Spike...

Where DID they actually go? Does anyone actually know???

~BP

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Yea lovin' the debate! It's not like a messy attempted rape or "you killed Tara!" debate. Also answers inside... -- Mark, 21:48:07 06/03/03 Tue

Imisstara said that Faith and Spike went off to get info from in inside at demon bars, which is confirmed in my episode. I won't get into specifics right now on why it took them so long...but it is explained :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Ooh also... -- imisstara, 21:54:13 06/03/03 Tue

The entire basis of my episode is that Giles is suspicious Willow has something to do with the new Big Bad, you could add a line, or even a look, regarding that. Because at the end of my ep it's implied Giles has pretty much figured out at the least Willow was involved so it wouldn't make sense for him to be totally shocked in yours.

okay like you said we could go on revising a thousand times, but that and the faith/spike are the main ones.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> As long as Kash can amend the version in the archive... -- Wyvern, 21:56:37 06/03/03 Tue

I say let's do it...

Let's dance around our handbags and drink malibu and pineapple, too :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> I'm all for the dancing and the drinking -- BunnyPhobia, 22:19:23 06/03/03 Tue

But Kash has spoken. So will he please tell everyone else to stop COMPLAINING and wait.

WAAAIIIIITTTTT

On the 'rubber soul' album.

WtP's a clever guy, but I'm cleverer. I made the connections :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Indeed. Kash is the Joss of this board (kinda) and has spoken. -- Wyvern, 22:31:08 06/03/03 Tue

Besides, I always did prefer drinking and dancing to revising...

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Whaddya mean "kinda"?! :-) -- Kashy wielding a cattle prod menacingly! :-), 22:45:07 06/03/03 Tue

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ooh... does this mean I'm going to get a spanking? -- Wyvern, 22:56:24 06/03/03 Tue

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not sure.... I think I may have been away from the C&S for too long! -- Kashmanik, 22:59:08 06/03/03 Tue

That's shocking... I've not spanked or groped anyone for a while... Maybe I'm losing my touch?!

Anyway, I'll leave the cattle prod with you to do with as you will. I've got last-minute History revision to do. Lenin and the Russian Revolution *and* Poverty and the Poor Law (1815 onwards). *yawn* I hate revising. :-(

Later! :-)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Mark explains Faith/Spike well enough in his ep, IMO. -- Kashmanik, 22:00:32 06/03/03 Tue

I really don't think we need to worry about revisions - after all, ME writers make mistakes they can't take back once an ep airs! :-)

In all seriousness though, we *can* leave plot threads unresolved without mentioning them in the next episode. Just look at the start of S5 - Dawn's arrival wasn't explained for 5 episodes! Don't feel pressured by readers wanting to know what's happening - in the words of Joss, we give them what they *need*, not what they *want*. And a little suspense never hurt anyone.

So there's my hat thrown into the ring at least - I'm agaist revisions unless something *drastically* wrong has happened with an episode.

Oh, and Mark - I'm airing your episode tomorrow night (UK time) so it'll probably be up about.... um, between 3 and 5 pm US time.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> I understand but.. -- imisstara, 22:10:20 06/03/03 Tue

Just this once can we make a revision? I kinda feel like my episode doesn't matter in the season cause it isn't mentioned at all, which is a little upsetting cause i worked really hard on it. And I changed things in my episode for episode 16 at the writers' request, like the fight scene and the ending.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> I know where you're coming from, but..... -- Kashmanik, 22:30:41 06/03/03 Tue

...if it's any consolation I believe the events of your episode are referenced in Ep19, and I definitely plan on using some elements of your episode in Ep20. So it will be pivotal to the season, even if it isn't pivotal to the 2 following it (one of which *was* a dream!) :-)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Well then I shouldn't have bothered revising my ep, after it aired, as a courtesy to the ep 16 writers -- imisstara *and thats the last I will say on the subject*, 22:49:13 06/03/03 Tue

Sorry but I had to vent. And that's as snarky as I get, I promise :)

Kinda feel like Faith right now...hehe. I think I'm gonna go dance slutty at a club and accidently kill a mayoral assistant. Then maybe I'll go make out with my principal...

We're all entitled to a little snark sometimes, right? :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Again, imisstara - we are sorry about the mix up -- BunnyPhobia, 22:39:43 06/03/03 Tue

And I know if I got chance to do it again, I'd come at it from a whole different angle.

Saying that, we did include the book, which people keep OVERLOOKING! Which is as annoying in itself as the 'xander's a murderer!' - NO, he's a manslaughtered..Stabbing with intent...but Amy's not DEAD...

*sigh*

Bloody fans *veg*

~BP

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Last thing I say about this... LOL I promise! -- imisstara, 00:31:10 06/04/03 Wed

Spike: Did we miss anything?

Buffy: Um...should we be asking you the same question?

Faith: What are you talking about, B?

Anya: Oh, she's going to pretend to ignore the obvious tension. I like that, a smart way to go. Always a good way to cover up the se-

Faith: (confused) Look, me and Souled Vamp the Second here were doing just what you told us to do.

Spike: Didn't find much info, aside from the usual "death to the good guys" line.

Faith: So old.

Dawn: (under her breath) Even I don't buy that...

Giles: Yes, well even though I hate to break up this...whatever this is, we really should plan what our next move will be. Something dangerous has emerged from the Hellmouth, and we need to know what that danger is.

Buffy: We should wait till night and check it out then. The cops will have had time to make up their lame yet understandable excuse for what happened by then.

Xander: Freak water pipe explosion? 4 out of 5 misguided Sunnydale cops use that as their excuse of choice!

Andrew: What about the fifth one?

Xander: (shakes head) He didn't make it...

Dawn: Ooh, I bet they blame it on that creepy new girl who keeps sniffing her pencils.

Buffy: Okay, disturbing theories aside, I think Kennedy, Willow, Xander, Dawn and I can check it out later tonight. It'll be one big crispy Hellmouth bash. There might be s'mores involved.

Andrew: Ooh, s'mores! I hope they won't taste like demon...

(Spikes walks up to Buffy)

Spike: What about me?

Buffy: (quietly) I think you've had enough action for one night.

(End Scene, pick up right where episode 16 opens, all is good)
-----

This took me 6 MINUTES to write. I'm not even saying to use this, I'm just trying to make a point. The reason I did this was just to show that it's not a big deal, I don't understand why it is, and the episode can actually make sense with some sort of bridging beginning. That was the only point I was trying to make, but I don't think people realize that... :( I hope I didn't come off bitchy or annoying or anything like that. I really did have the good of the season in mind.

Ok, that's it!

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> hehe this is funny! hehe smores.... -- Mark, 18:02:47 06/04/03 Wed

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Hey, I agree with you -- BunnyPhobia, 13:15:34 06/04/03 Wed

Ten minutes is nothing to provide a little closure that can then be reopened in the later episodes.

Seriously, I TOTALLY agree with you

~BP

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Can we reach some kind of compromise on this? -- Wyvern, 18:11:23 06/04/03 Wed

See, imisstara, BP and I agree with you, but Kash has spoken and in the end we need to acquiesce. There has to be one person who can say, "This is where it stops" and he has.

I've just re-read "Crisis" and I actually don't think that the continuity problem is as bad as it seems - as long as you don't assume the episode follows on immediately, because it wasn't written that way. I think there was the assumption that some time had passed and that for good or ill, certain things had been brought up "off-screen". I'm not saying that changes shouldn't have been made; I think what would have made all the difference (and actually, it would have been more than relevent to our episode) would have been to have recapped that final scene. But they do leave the way open for future episodes, and that's kind of the point about a serial; you don't clear things up straight away (I think that point's been made elsewhere in this thread), you may even let the go completely for a while to be picked up in the future. That's what we were doing, bringing in threads from several episodes before. Sure, the mix-up over the order of writers was unfortunate (I think we may have apologised for that *g*) but these things do happen. But the thing is, it isn't over yet.

So here's my suggestion...

Before we wear ourselves out from all the jumping up and down about what we should or shouldn't change, why don't we see what the next episode has in store? Apparently, Mark's done a really good job on the Faith and Spike story and to be honest, the way "Crisis" reads to me, it sets them up nicely for a reasonably serious bit of exposition later on, which may actually do the story more justice than a throwaway scene at the beginning of ours. Plus, if we bugger about with ours, it means that it may upset future continuity. So can we just trust Mark to do a great job and see how it works out?

And no, imisstara, I don't think you were being in any way difficult or snarky or whatever, just someone defending a piece of work of which you are justifiable proud.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Thank you, BP and Wyvern. From the bottom of my heart... -- imisstara, 18:17:42 06/04/03 Wed

...I hope I have not offended either of you, because that was never once my intent. I was just a little passionate yesterday, lol I hope you can understand. I guess i was just thrown for a loop that the request was denied and was a little taken aback by that. I didn't even really care before, if I did i would have posted something the day your ep was posted, which was a wonderful ep, by the way. Can't say that enough.

Yes, we can definitely reach a comprimise. I want to put this behind us because I love all you guys!! You're great! I would seriously be happy with one sentence added, that's it. Just one sentence and I think the eps can be briged. Something like, "Spike ran off a little while ago, I think he was a little uncomfortable from all the stares he and Faith got... Too bad they couldn't find any good info." Or, at the least, some scenes added to your previously on... segment.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Forgot to add... -- imisstara, 18:29:51 06/04/03 Wed

That I have great confidence that Mark resolved things well, enough to that we won't have to put in an entire extra scene to this. Like i said, one line would be nice, but im not going to press it. It just really bugs me that people are critizing your ep because of something like that and not even looking at the content.

But again, I wanted to apologize deeply if I offended either of you. I completly know it was a mistake and I feel almost embarresed this has turned into something that it shouldn't have.

-Katie

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Please don't sweat it - I really do understand :) -- Wyvern, 19:19:48 06/04/03 Wed

I'm really not offended by anything you've said - I understand where you're coming from. And there's really no cause for embarrassment - to be honest, this board has been ticking along for too long without anything resembling a blow-out to clear the air and if this is as bad as it gets then we're doing great!

And don't worry about other people critcising us - I'm hoping that as the season comes to a conclusion they'll see what we were trying to do and it's going to make a lot more sense.

Hmmm.... d'you think we should maybe stop apologising at each other yet???

*hugs*

Wyv

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I just want to explain my decision. -- Kashmanik, 09:46:56 06/05/03 Thu

To be completely honest, the reason I'm against going back and making changes is that it sets a precedent. If we open that door, it's likely that future authors will say "Oh, here's how this line could be funnier." or "I should have added another scene here." and it will be absolute chaos. And if I say no, the response? "You let someone else do it."

I do sympathise with you, but I've got to take a stance on this, and unfortunately I *have* to be the bad guy here. Part of the job. :-(

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Well I think we're all swell :) -- BunnyPhobia, 19:19:51 06/05/03 Thu

imisstara - see everything Wyvy said, and double it for me. Kash has a point, he has authority, and at the same time it is justified for you to want your episode to be recognised. Of course it is!

But I'm off to go read Mark's ep, which I'm sure is brilliant...

And hey, least the disgruntled readers keep talking about it :)

~BP

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> Our mission -- That one guy, 06:37:17 06/04/03 Wed

Great job, although alot more tension would be good.. lets paint them red handed and then in episode 22 show what they really were doing? We'll leave little clues and stuff and then audience will rave and stuff about it then like show them finding out that perplexa has something to do with time.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]