Big Bad Discussion -- Season Eight Fanfic Discussion

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[> Big Bad idea... -- Faithsguy, 13:43:21 02/16/03 Sun

Kashy did you get my email about "The Dark One" I thought that might be a possible idea for a biggest of the big bads.

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[> [> Yep, I got your mail. Any chance you could elaborate on it? -- Kashmanik, 13:47:18 02/16/03 Sun

After all, this board is as much to let all the other writers know your ideas as it is to let me know. :-)

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[> [> [> The Dark One, big bad idea...(spoilers) -- Faithsguy, 15:28:22 02/16/03 Sun

Imagine if you will......

Back to the days that the first slayer was created. The three swahili men create the slayer to protect the world against the First Evil. The First in turn wants to create an enemy powerful enough to defend it against the slayer line. The First kills the first slayer and uses her energy to create an evil force with her energy and the energy of the darkest magicks. The First calls this evil "The Dark One". The Dark One works as a minion for the First, killing any slayer who dare stands to come against the First. However the Dark One begins getting stronger and stronger. Eventually the Dark One channels his own power and makes himself a minion named "The Bringer". The First fears The Dark Ones power and banishes its soul from this dimension and all dimensions. The First decides that as punishment for its ever growing strength, he will banish its body to the mortal world and live a life over and over until the First feels that the Dark One can be returned to its body. As for the Bringer, the First just banishes him to another dimension, asumming that the Bringer is not powerful at all. Meanwhile these hundreds of thousands of years pass. The First either dies, or is banished at the hands of Buffy and the gang. Thus leads us up to season eight. We find that when Glory opened the portal to go home, one of the demons that came out of the portal was "The Bringer". It has been channeling power and giving it to the Dark One for the last three years, we find that the Dark One brought Buffy back to life, the spell was working that willow did but when the urn of osiris broke, osiris stopped the spell but the dark one took over. The Dark One wants buffy alive because she contains a great power, the greatest of any slayer and he wants her power. Now the Dark One is strong enough to return to this dimension and he is going after Buffy.

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[> [> [> [> Wow, that sounds cool. -- Marzipan, 20:13:50 02/16/03 Sun

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[> Big Bad and Little Bad -- Sgt. Rock, 19:17:50 02/16/03 Sun

This kinda builds on Kash's BB idea, as well as my own:

The watchers had a failsafe in place in case the council were ever damaged/destroyer. A council within the council as it were. A select few (5 of them), away from the council base, who would take control in any big emergency. One of their members is Giles' aunt. Their first objective is to reset the council, get rid of those who oppose their plans. This includes Giles and Wesley (the rebel watchers. This also brings in the fang gang for a crossover), Buffy and Faith (slayers not working for the council) and Kennedy (who's been too influenced by the slayers). Obviously Giles' aunt doesn't want him wiped out so opposes them and becomes a good guy. The watchers help the scoobs destroy the small bad. The small bads are the four horsemen of the apocalypse. They're very old vampires, each with a amulet which gives them their power. The new watchers council take the amulets after the horsemen are destroyed to provided them with the power to defeat the slayer.
These powers are:
War - Can tear apart relations between countries, also tears at the relationships of friends.
Famine - Essentially kills the earth, makes it die
Plague - although Willow has protected the scoobs from disease, she can't protect the town, leading to a race against time to save them
Control of beasts - Can bring animals and demons to their command.

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[> My idea. (slightly different from the emailed one) -- Kashmanik, 23:44:19 02/16/03 Sun

What if the Watchers Council had always known that they were at risk of attack, and had a failsafe in place in case they were wiped out. Imagine that over the years, the Council have decided to "preserve" their best and brightest, by magically sealing them somewhere. The Council could have magically frozen five Watchers, who would be awoken if the Council was destroyed (say, for instance, that this magical field had to be maintainenced regularly, and since there are no Watchers no one has been their to keep up the magic barrier, which has broken down.) This has been a secret held by only the highest members of the Council - even those being frozen didn't know what was going on, they were simply abducted and put in there. And one of these Watchers could be.... Giles' grandmother! She is awoken, as well as three others from various time periods who have been frozen. One of these, I thought, may just have been a trainee Watcher, from the 1700's. Not preserved because he was particularly brilliant, or whatever, but because he was secretly a werewolf, and his Slayer had attacked him and almost killed him, so the Council froze him in the hopes that they'd find a cure for werewolfism (anyone thinking we could have a guest spot from Oz here? :-) Anyway, the Watchers could be drawn to whereever the Slayer is, and they turn up in Sunnydale, terrified because the world has changed so much. The Scoobs help them re-acclimatise, and Giles' grandmother becomes very close to Buffy and Dawn, to the point where she is basically their new mother figure. The Watchers help the Scoobs destroy the Little Bad, a group of vampires who have come to Sunnydale to summon a demon army. This makes a huge amount of demons travel to Sunnydale, where they basically hibernate until the time comes that they will be used. Anyway, the Watchers are instrumental there in killing the vampires who were controlling the other demons. For a few episodes they consider what to do about it, and finally the Watchers think that cutting off Sunnydale from the outside world is the best option. The Scoobs think they mean evacuating the town and putting up a magic barrier around it, but the Watchers secretly want to transport the whole town into a demon dimension. (Insert Dawn Key Arc here!) :-)

Giles' grandmother is the most radical and anti-demon of the group, and she would be the main BB. The only Watcher who sides with the Scoobs is the werewolf Watcher, who has pretty much been an outcast from the Council ever since the others found out he's a demon.

Giles, Buffy and Dawn would be really supportive of the Watchers plan, but the others are more cautious, and it is they who discover the real plot.

There's lots more to figure out, but I thought this was a start. :-)

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[> [> so is that the Big Bad plan? -- Faithsguy, 00:54:50 02/17/03 Mon

Is that it or are we gonna vote on a few choices or what? I'm a little confused lol

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[> [> [> No, this is just my suggestion! :-) -- Kashmanik, 00:57:29 02/17/03 Mon

We'll get everyone's ideas posted, then vote on 'em. :-)

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[> [> [> [> oh cool, thanks for clearing that up -- Faithsguy, 01:17:05 02/17/03 Mon

I've been snowed in for a while, I think I'm just going stir crazy

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[> I'm wading through the tales of the slayer at the moment -- Sam the Eagle, 01:44:25 02/17/03 Mon

and think that this watcher's council idea does have a good basing although I do think it'll have to be tuned and tweeked to better define it.

I'll post up a more thoroughly detailed version of this once I've read all of the stories, but I think that it is a good place to build from.

e.g. in 'Unholy Madness' by Nancy Holder we see a slayer named Marie-Christine working for Marie-Antoinette and Louis 16th under the orders of the watchers council. Working for the royals during the french revolution rather than the greater good and the people of France.

I think this story is very interesting because it shows that the Watchers Council can be lured by money, wealth and most importantly power. They unfortunately chose the 'wrong' power.

Could this choosing the "Wrong Power" ultimately be their downfall in our season?

I will get back to you with more on this soon

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[> That sounds cool -- Spike's Bird, 22:56:43 02/17/03 Mon

I like the idea of the 'wrong power' maybe the slayer was the wrong power & harnessed by the cow 4 the greater good, who gets 2 choose the greater good if the council are corrupt? the dark 1 could be our lb & the cow could be our bb after all

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[> One name: DRUSILLA!!! -- anyas_butt_monkey, 00:40:15 02/18/03 Tue

And do i really need to give you a reason?!?!

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[> [> I don't know now -- Sam the Eagle, 00:53:18 02/18/03 Tue

Initially I thought of her too, but the more and more I think of it I think she'd be a much better single story - perhaps over two episodes - such as This Year's Girl and Five by Five.

I think she should return and the Spike/Dru story ended finalyy. Like I have said in my Spike arc.

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[> [> [> How about a Dru/D'Hoffryn pairing? -- anyas_butt_monkey, 00:56:06 02/18/03 Tue

Of course, it would be hard to find a reason why either of them would work together...but I for one would be *so* up for seeing that!!

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[> Throwin' my vote in for that whole four horseman idea -- although I like the dark one, too... -- Marzipan, 01:07:27 02/18/03 Tue

I'm torn. And without any ideas of my own.

But I really like the "traditional flair" of the four horsemen idea.

My only notion was for a small bad -- the idea that those who remained from the council were determined not to let themselves get destroyed quite so easily again, so they decide to achieve a little immortality for themselves. They decide to vamp themselves but with the idea that they can use some sort of magical force to maintain their "goodness" while still taking on demon qualities. I guess "Helpless" and the way Travers and the rest seemed to think they could control the vamps made me think of what it would be like if the council took on the very qualities they were trying to destroy in order to still try and fight the good fight. I think a good many of the watchers would be opposed to this course of action and would be vamped against their will -- i.e. Giles, perhaps Wes. The good guys would be against it. I think this would be another huge instance of the council's hubris leading them to believe they can control forces they can't.

Then the question becomes one of slayers against watchers. I don't think this is a big bad type fight, more a little bad idea.

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[> Big Bad -- Mark, 01:32:01 02/18/03 Tue

I think the Dark One would be a great idea if the First wasn't the Big Bad of season 7. Sorry but I just think it's way too similar. We need to have a radically different big bad every year.

I always thought that the Watchers could somehow be involved in the Big Bad. haha I've said it once and I'll say it again, I would love a vamped former slayer to be involved somehow. Maybe it could be the Watcher's fault she vamped, like they wanted to try and make the Ultimate Slayer, and tried to make a good, souled Vamp Slayer but it all went horribly wrong. They've been keeping it in captivity for hundreds of years, not wanting to destroy it for selfish reasons. Then when the Watcher's building was destroyed this year she was able to get out and has been wreaking havoc in England and finally makes it to Sunnydale. She could be the Little Bad, and the Watcher would want to destroy it's terrible mistake at any possible cost. Then we could go into Kashmanik's idea of having an army of vamps form in Sunnydale and the Watchers would want to suck Sunnydale into a demon dimension.

However I do not think we should bring back Dawn as the Key in any way. No major storyline in Buffy has really been brought back and I don't think we should start now. For the most part the Big Bads and their Big Bad Plans have all been different and not inter-related and I think it should stay that way.

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[> Okay here it is. -- Sam the Eagle, 02:32:22 02/18/03 Tue

The Wrong Power

The Slayer was created in a time when monsters roamed the earth. A primevil power capable of defeating these demons and working on the side of good.

Black and white. Good and evil.

Not all slayers had watchers, not all slayers even knew of their powers, but what of those who did. What do we truely know about a watcher? Why do they want to help
the slayers? What is their history and what are their motives? Are they truely there to aid the slayers?

On many occassions Giles has witheld important information from Buffy. Recall the things Quentin put her through. Merrick was downright creepy and Wesley was just cruel in his treating of Faith. They are all people, they all make
choices.

But they all work for the Council.

Black and white. Good and evil. What about the grey in the world?

What if the Council made a wrong choice? They are meant to be fighting for the greater good. They are fighting for the people; fighting for the greater good. What if the council made a bad choice? What if instead of
supporting the people they felt that a truely evil power was the greater good? What if the council were supporting THE WRONG POWER?

Tired of the Council attempting to control her Buffy left them in season 3??? Although she allowed them back into the equation in season 5. Frustrated that they have no control over the slayer any more for the last year the council have been plotting to kill both Buffy and Faith at the same time. They discovered that if this possible then both Slayer's powers abilities and powers will be transferred into one potential. Creating THE ULTIMATE SLAYER - big battle ending anyone?

Only a slight problem. The Watcher's Council Headquarters was blown up. One person survived the blast.

The Watcher's Council had always feared that the day may come when a slayer is strong enough to survive without them. To work completely out of their control and was ultimately unbeatable. They had of course planned for it.

A core group of Watchers throughout the ages had been nominated to be frozen in time in order to deal with the situation should it ever arise. Burried in a secret vault
under the Watcher's Council Headquarters they lay dorment under a spell. Until the headquarters was blown up, breaking the spell on the vault and releasing them. Knowing that they would only be awoken should a slayer be out of the control of the council they instantly think that they slayer is responsible for destroying all watchers and they set off to restart the watchers council, destroy the current slayer and train a new slayer to obey them.

Aided by the sole surviver of the explosion. The four ultimate watchers are brought up to speed on the Slayers (both of them) desertion. They are told of the plan to destroy both slayers and re-create the slayer line with THE ULTIMATE SLAYER.

The Watcher's council are not evil. They are fighting for the greater good... their greater good. As an age old unit they've always believed that they are on the side of
good. That they are the one thing that can guide the slayer in the right direction, and help destroy the evil in the world. They cannot function in this time without a
slayer. They need a slayer they can control. They think they are good - doing the right thing, but times have changed, only they don't know it. They came from a world of

Black and white. Good and evil. What about the grey in the world?

What will they make of Anya and Spike? What about Willow and Faith embracing evil? What about Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike? What about Giles abandoning the Council? What about Dawn - an ultimate power?

*****************************************************

I'll be adding more to this over the next few days. What do you think?

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[> Judgement Day -- Sgt. Rock, 04:28:43 02/18/03 Tue

Another idea I've had. I think in many ways it's less complex than my other idea, and gives it a basis in real mythology.

Judgement Day is approaching. The Four Horsemen (with the powers I mentioned above) have been sent to recover seven tokens from the Earth. Each token is one step closer to the apocalypse.
1st token: 1/3 of the earth is burned up, 1/3 if trees, 1/3 of grass

2nd token: 1/3 if the sea turns to blood, 1/3 of sea creatures die, 1/3 of ships destroyed (that's it, no more Spuffy! :P)

3rd token: 1/3 water becomes bitter

4th token: 1/3 of light is destroyed, so day is shorter and night is darker (less moonlight or starlight)

5th token: The hellmouth is opened

6th token: 1/3 of remaing mankind is killed

7th token: Judgement Day

Throughout the season the tokens are being found and we're getting closer and closer to judgement day and the end of the world.

Other random ideas (basically stuff I havn't really thought through yet):

Little is known about Judgement Day, but they do know that they will be their own judge, this means that if someone knows they're evil then they're judged as evil, if they know they're good then they're judged as good. So everyone has to face up to their past (could be a good excuse to bring back old characters, even if they're dead)

At some point (havn't decided why yet), Spike is seperated from his demon, what's left is a human Spike and a pure-demon (like we saw Angel as in Pylea). This pure demon is under the control of the horsemen. Like when Xander was split in 2, one Spike cannot exist without the other so they're trying to capture it (Andrew's demon summoning abilities come into play here), but in the end Human!Spike has to kill Demon!Spike, resulting in his own death after he's done his big farewell speech.

If judgement day is stopped then everything gets reset, hellmouth closes, light returns etc..

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[> [> Addition to this - inclusion of LB -- Sgt. Rock, 17:09:03 02/19/03 Wed

In the book of revelations it says that the 5th token is opening the abyss (the hellmouth) but it also says that the abyss is opened by a fallen star, this could be the vamped slayer (or whever the LB is, all the ideas seem to have that fallen star feel), at the end of ep 17 which kicks off the end of the season arc.

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[> what about.......BB spec. -- merrick981, 15:36:31 02/18/03 Tue

These ideas are all kick ass. The 3 that stand out in mind are (in no order) 1)Judgement day itself 2)Dark One with the Watcher's Council 3)The first Vampire brought forth by the "the bringer".

But something else I would like people to consider is, what if the BB for the season is actually a power of good, brought forth to shut down the SG, not to kill them, just to say, "your time is up", or to another level, lets say because the FE was freed by the slayer, TPTB no longer see the SG as a responsible group of the "keepers" of the hellmouth. They are hunted by TPTB, and are torn with the issue that if good isn't on their side, who is. This could really cause a riff in the group, and perhaps they could face their pasts. Its just a thought.

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[> [> My BB idea! -- imisstara, 21:25:34 02/18/03 Tue

I like the idea of having the Watchers create an Ultimate Slayer. Like they could take a slayer and vamp it and turn it into a werewolf and give it an "aspect of the demon" (like in Earshot). Or something like that, they could be trying to make the ultimate fighter against evil, but somewhere along the way they lose their way or become corrupted. So the Super Slayer would be the Little Bad and the Watchers the Big Bad, or vise versa. I guess kinda like Adam and the Initiative.

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[> This is gonna be a touchy subject but... -- Neil, 23:37:09 02/18/03 Tue

I don't like the idea of the watchers council being the overall big bad. I feel that if they wanted to destroy sunnydale/open the hellmouth it would have been done years ago. Besides we have already been there with a good guy(s) gone bad!

To be honest I think it should be a completely new big bad that has never been on Buffy before or something that appeared in one episode such as the Gentleman etc...

I wouldn't mind a few members of the watchers council to have survived and maybe appear in an odd episode or two. Afterall surely all ties to the watchers council were not in the building when it blew up!

I feel that the idea of watchers frozen to thaw out in the 21st century and wreak havoc is too much like a story from a comic book.

I say give people something to think about like: what is this?, what's it's weaknesses?, what's it's powers?, and most important what's it's motive?

I feel that the council has no real reason or motive to be true bad as in end of the world bad. It's just way too much out of character for them!

They wouldn't willingly help protect the world just to have some of them destroy in the new millenium!

Anyway I realise a lot of people seem to like this idea and obviously I'll go with it if everyone else agrees and write my episodes with this big bad in mind.

Again though this is just my honest opinion.

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[> [> I agree -- Sgt. Rock, 23:46:43 02/18/03 Tue

I wouldn't mind seeing them come back with the intention of getting rid of the slayers for a 2-3 ep mini-arc but I don't really want to see them as the BB. The BB should be completely different and powerful.

If it does end up being a council storyline (which I'm ok with if everyone else wants it) then it should be the council members who are left, not thawed out watchers.

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[> [> [> Yeah I agree -- Mark, 23:55:17 02/18/03 Tue

Sorry but I'm just not feeling the thawed out Watcher part, I really don't get it. I like everything else in the watcher storyline but I'm not sure about the popcycle watcher thing.

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[> [> Read my version -- Sam the Eagle, 01:28:38 02/19/03 Wed

I agreed with you on the watcher's destroying sunnydale - I thought that they aren't entirely evil. They are just redundant. That is why I had them going after the scoobies - mainly Buffy and Faith.

Just read my version and then see what you think of them as the big bad

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[> [> Yeah I have to agree -- Faithsguy, 02:22:01 02/19/03 Wed

when I was writing that long post, I thought...umm...why would they do this again.....but then I just finished the post.

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