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Monday, May 06, 12:29:49am

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• You are right by criteria dating back 50 years. There was a previously and Anfield comes to mind. Stood in the enclosure , we celebrated the game's first goal (Clarke) and were assured by surrounding scousers that they remained confident. (Justified). It was all light-hearted, neither daring nor saintly, just what happened outside The Kop or equivalent. But -- this may sound strange today -- it wasn't "neutrality" or indifference. Appreciate this isn't ancient history but pre-history. (NT) -- b+w g., Wednesday, April 24, 09:11:57am (79.52.159.143.dyn.plus.net/143.159.52.79)
  • Actually I'm right by the present day rules. https://www.fulhamfc.com/more/policies/terms-and-conditions/ (NT) -- El Pato, Wednesday, April 24, 10:57:41am (31-221-74-31.cust-31.exponential-e.net/31.221.74.31)
    • Of course you are and so too for decades. But not since time immemorial for what that's worth (not much, unsurprisingly). (NT) -- b+w g., Wednesday, April 24, 11:03:42am (79.52.159.143.dyn.plus.net/143.159.52.79)
    • On Sunday I had to remove the screw top of my plastic water bottle in order to be allowed in at the turnstile. Rules are rules said the friendly stewardess. The bottle would be bound to be knocked over during the game I said to her. Guess what happened? .......Rules...Rules...Rules. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Wednesday, April 24, 12:08:39pm (NoHost/31.94.24.37)
      • So your point is that we should let as many away fans home in sections as possible, because it's in the rules that you can't. Just weird (NT) -- El Pato, Wednesday, April 24, 04:07:44pm (31-221-74-31.cust-31.exponential-e.net/31.221.74.31)
        • Not the hammy end. I say it doesn't matter in the Putney End where many are day trippers, tourists, etc. I would rather see a seat sold than kept empty. Also, the concourse is not segregated where home and away mix anyway. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Wednesday, April 24, 05:41:11pm (NoHost/31.94.24.36)
  • Why did all that territorial nonsence enter football fandom in the 1970's? It had only been 15 - 20 years before that men from different parts of the country had been fighting side by side against the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Also back in the good old days there was solidarity between workers during general strikes. A lot of hooliganism predates Thatcher, so it puzzles me to know what divided young men in the 70's, unless it was the north - south divide in terms of wages. (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Wednesday, April 24, 02:22:53pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
    • Sorry 25 years since.... (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Wednesday, April 24, 02:28:30pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
    • I guess its called tribalism which must have started in the early 60,s when the idea of a group of young men would stand together, singing, chanting, etc. Apparently the East End had territorial battles back in the Victorian days, so its nothing new. Theres always been double tribalism - local and national. When England play now, different supporters seem to find it easy to stand together. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Wednesday, April 24, 02:38:38pm (NoHost/185.111.131.198)
      • There was relative prosperity at the end of the 60's. I guess the rise in oil prices in the early 70's fuelled working class tensions, which spilled over on to the terraces. (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Wednesday, April 24, 04:31:57pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
        • Your over thinking it Juan. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Wednesday, April 24, 06:30:45pm (NoHost/31.94.24.36)
          • Why is that right always grows in popularity during economic downturns? (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Thursday, April 25, 10:15:14am (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
            • I agree that you are overthinking it - I was a teenager in the 70's - a number of kids I went to school with used to run with different firms - there was nothing political about it - they just enjoyed the sport of it - and jeez could they talk endlessly about it. (NT) -- f bloke, Thursday, April 25, 11:13:24am (host86-134-8-206.range86-134.btcentralplus.com/86.134.8.206)
              • Yes, but they were all likely jumping on a bandwagon already established by what other causal factors? Was it just young male bravado, or was there also a lack opportunity to do more self rewarding stuff either at work or in non work time? Skinheads and Rockers often had political values and fought. The two generations before had the wars and would have had enough of fighting I guess. (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Thursday, April 25, 01:45:36pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
                • my experience was that they just enjoyed it - at my school, the more politically aware tended not to be the types running with the firms. Those that did - defined themselves by their physical toughness - which to them was more important than being smart or funny - and smart and funny ranked below being good at sport. (NT) -- f bloke, Thursday, April 25, 02:37:21pm (host86-134-8-206.range86-134.btcentralplus.com/86.134.8.206)
                  • I agree hooligans were not necessarily politically driven. Some would have had far right connections, some in the Anti Nazi League? What I am trying to theorise is if the socio-political milieu of the time made hooliganism more likely; social deprivation, lack of other meaningful leisure pursuits, unemployment? The early 70's were pretty dull times with the 3 day week and oil price rises. Football was an opportunity to become stimulated and affilliated with others through conflict. (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Thursday, April 25, 03:10:22pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
                    • The end of conscription in 56 might have something to do with it. Young men need an outlet for their high energy levels. Not saying the military is the answer but it might partially answer your question. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Thursday, April 25, 03:56:32pm (NoHost/31.94.24.36)
                      • Yes I thought that. When you compare what is out there and affordable for youngsters these days, compared to those times; indoor climbing walls, different types of cycling including mountain biking, marshall arts, parkuor, skateboarding, graffitti artistry. Most carry an element of risk and were not around in the 70's. Also the extensive use of gyms these days help young people to get stimulation and a sense of achivement. (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Thursday, April 25, 04:43:06pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)
                        • Also,the ability to travel is much more affordable now and television was very limited back then. No PlayStations and the like either. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Thursday, April 25, 06:17:01pm (NoHost/31.94.24.37)
    • Specifically on football, the difference 60 years ago, was not that there was no tribalism, but 1) it took itself less balls-achingly solemnly. 2) You could mix in more than half of a ground (even e.g. Anfield), and not just by lying low. Stayed that way longer in other sports, I think. (NT) -- b+w g., Wednesday, April 24, 04:58:09pm (79.52.159.143.dyn.plus.net/143.159.52.79)
      • Pretty sure hooliganism was fairly common place in the 60's - Tribal violence was already a thing with mods/rockers, skinheads, suedeheads. I am guessing - but I suspect before the 60's, going to the game was something you did with your dad - from the 60's it was what you did with your mates. In the last 20 years or so - it is again a thing that you do with your mum/dad which may be another reason why the atmospheres are not quite what they were. (NT) -- f bloke, Wednesday, April 24, 05:11:11pm (host86-134-8-206.range86-134.btcentralplus.com/86.134.8.206)
        • I agree (indeed said) tribalism existed, being a human constant arguably. Hooliganism arising from, too. But I stick to my memory of a lack of segregation in many parts of football grounds where the notion today would be reckoned sacriligeous. Also that the result was not a diminution of atmosphere. (NT) -- b+w g., Wednesday, April 24, 06:10:44pm (79.52.159.143.dyn.plus.net/143.159.52.79)
          • I defer to your memory since I was v young at the time but I do remember Derby fans trying to take the Hammy end the season they went up under Clough and seeing Arsenal fans run onto the pitch at the dog track to take on the Shed - that would have been around the same time. Maybe just not as common place as the 70s (NT) -- f bloke, Wednesday, April 24, 06:37:41pm (host86-134-8-206.range86-134.btcentralplus.com/86.134.8.206)
            • Cross-purposes here and nothing to defer to, since Shed, Kop, North Bank, Chicken Run, H.End... were in my memory too distinct tribal territory. Elsewhere, while of course home supporters predominated, it wasn't a crime to be among them. Only had, and have, that limited point to make, but will add this was prior to replica kit, all-seaters and the need to pre-book. (NT) -- b+w g., Wednesday, April 24, 07:15:19pm (79.52.159.143.dyn.plus.net/143.159.52.79)
        • My uncle was an Arsenal fan who used to stand on the North Bank every home game. He stopped going the first time he saw violance on the terraces in the late 60's. He never went again. I always thought this was an overeaction, but he was quite adament about it. (NT) -- Juana Aorta, Wednesday, April 24, 06:27:19pm (host-92-18-248-105.as13285.net/92.18.248.105)

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• It was only a few years ago the Putney End was designated a neutral area. Unofficially it still is. (NT) -- Hammersmithender, Wednesday, April 24, 12:39:33pm (NoHost/31.94.24.36)