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Date Posted: Sat, Sep 22, 06:08:59pm CST
Author: Rex
Author Host/IP: cpe-065-188-185-013.triad.res.rr.com / 65.188.185.13
Subject: Re: Merelikins, Swerles, and Pie Balds ????
In reply to: jerry 's message, "Re: Merelikins, Swerles, and Pie Balds ????" on Thu, Sep 20, 08:07:04pm CST

>>>>>>>>>>>>> What in the world are those? Just three of
>>>>>many
>>>>>>>>>>>color
>>>>>>>>>>>>>patterns that can appear in breeds with
>>merle
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>brindle genes. Some breeds do not allow
>>>mating
>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>with merle to a female with brindle, or
>>solid
>>>>>>>>>blacks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and blues to tan trims ,or fawns to any of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>above.Reason being,each mating compounds
>the
>>>>>>>>>>factors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>genetic modifiers can have either positive
>>or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>negitive, and to various degrees. I'm sure
>>>>many
>>>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>seen a white deer with spots, Pie bald, or
>>>>>>>>mulatto?
>>>>>>>>>>A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Merlikin", or properly, a Merlequin, has
>>>>genes
>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>both merle and Harliquin. "Swerles" are
>>merle
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>brindle with modified color gene, often
>>>called
>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Camo". Very few of these are seen in our
>>>>>>present
>>>>>>>>>>day
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Leopards but I asure you they can
>evenyually
>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>there. I've old photos of Plott Curs manys
>>>>>years
>>>>>>>>>>>back,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing them.Seen it in Julys. Great Danes
>>>had
>>>>>>>>them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>real bad and then prohibited crossing
>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>patterns. The July breeders bred for
>ability
>>>>>>only
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>this crazy patterns persisted. Catahoulas
>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>this..Five genetic modifiers that produce
>>>>>white,
>>>>>>>>>>>other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>than outside influence. Me thinks we know
>>>>>very,
>>>>>>>>>>very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>little about the color "Leopard" ! There
>are
>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>informing articles on this subject, I've
>>>>>studied
>>>>>>>>>>>them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>only to conclude it was way over my
>>>>>>head,,,.Color
>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>only ONE of fourteen traits in a treedog.
>>Rex
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I've read a few of the more common books on
>>>>>>>>>genetics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>none of which I have commited to memory for
>>>>>>>>>certain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I got one from Jed Prendergast last year and
>>>it
>>>>>>>was
>>>>>>>>>>>>the most easy and informative of all that I
>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>>looked at. It's title is GENETICS by Jackie
>>>>>>>>>>Isabell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>In short it states that the locus M allele
>>is,
>>>>>>>"The
>>>>>>>>>>>>most complex of all pairs (Mm)...The m
>allele
>>>>is
>>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>>>>>>excellent example of pleiotropy--the
>>>phenomenon
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>single allele causing a number of distinct
>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>seemingly unrelated phenotiypic effects.
>>Even
>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>>heterozygous, the M allele is associated
>qith
>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>>>>>deafness ans well as occasional wall
>>>>eyes...When
>>>>>>>>>>>>homozygous the dogs usually have samll eyes
>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>blue
>>>>>>>>>>>>or partly blue irises, and they often have
>>>>>>>impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>hearing and fertility." Merle coloring is
>>>very
>>>>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>on my head. I wish I had a buddy who knew
>>>more
>>>>>>>>>about
>>>>>>>>>>>>it. I think I'm going to have to call the
>>>>>>>>>>university.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Rex I really enjoy your post I learn from
>>them
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>they make me think some to.You know me
>>thinking
>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>bad
>>>>>>>>>>>lol.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Here is a lengthy article on Canine Color
>>>>Genetics
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Ramie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>href="http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Colo
>r
>>G
>>>e
>>>>n
>>>>>.
>>>>>>h
>>>>>>>t
>>>>>>>>m
>>>>>>>>>l
>>>>>>>>>>">http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen
>.
>>h
>>>t
>>>>m
>>>>>l
>>>>>><
>>>>>>>/
>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Good article, all in one spot. Hard to absorb
>>in
>>>>>>one
>>>>>>>>>sitting...kind of like Thanksgiving:). Takes
>>>>about
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>week to eat everything you've cooked.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It is I have to read it about 10 times LOL....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Here is another....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ringstreaked, Speckled, and Spotted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>href="http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8
>/
>>8
>>>4
>>>>6
>>>>>.
>>>>>>h
>>>>>>>t
>>>>>>>>ml">http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/8
>4
>>6
>>>.
>>>>h
>>>>>t
>>>>>>m
>>>>>>>l
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ramie
>>>>>>> GREAT !!! now, we are thinking. In the
>>>>>beginning;Gen.
>>>>>>>1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth
>the
>>>>>>>living creature according to its
>>>>kind:......25....and
>>>>>>>God saw that it WAS good." I beleive that. I also
>>>>>>>beleive there are some things we will never
>>>>copletley
>>>>>>>figure out; Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not
>>>>your
>>>>>>>thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways" says the
>>Lord.
>>>>>>>"For as the heavens are higherthan the earth, So
>>>are
>>>>>>>My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts
>>than
>>>>>>>yours".
>>>>>>> Thru the years scientist learn that what they
>>>once
>>>>>>>thought , was wrong, and come up with new ideas,
>>>>only
>>>>>>>to later learn, again, wrong. It seemed correct
>at
>>>>>>>that time.We just need to put all this in
>>>>>perspective,
>>>>>>>and keep learning!
>>>>>>> James1:19 "So then, my beloved brethren,let
>every
>>>>>man
>>>>>>>be SWIFT to hear, SLOW to speak[type!],and SLOW
>to
>>>>>>>wrath." Rex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is a question for some of you fellas studying
>>>>the
>>>>>>genetic color phases. Is it possible for a black
>>>>>>female to throw a double merle??
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes and No…. Leopard Gene for Coat color has to be
>>on
>>>>>Multiple Loci and is a lot more complex that what I
>>>am
>>>>>about to try explain. If the Black female would
>have
>>>>>to carry Mm (merle) but be on the recessive
>>>>>relationship of the multiple loci. In other words
>>she
>>>>>carried the gene you just can’t see it….She could
>>>then
>>>>>produce pups with MM (double merle). If she
>carried
>>>>>mm(non merle) then no she couldn’t have any pups
>>that
>>>>>was MM (double merle). Now please take in a count
>>the
>>>>>sire genes has to be at least Mm (merle) for this
>to
>>>>>work out. If he only carried mm(non-merle)there
>>would
>>>>>be 75% mm to 25% Mm and no MM.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ramie
>>>>I believe the sire in the case I was thinking of had
>>>>to be Mm Thanks Perry
>>> Perry, in my opinion a black dog can not produce
>>>double merle, or albino.In 35 years I've never seen
>it
>>>happen. A double merle, likewise, cannot produce
>solid
>>>black. This is one way to test breed and see if the
>>>white on a dog comes from double merle. A merle and a
>>>merlikin, can both produce black offspring from a
>>>merle mating. A merlikin produces same percentages as
>>>a merle. Bred Jake to Pester[solid black/brindle] got
>>>NO white. Bred him to leopard color female and got
>>>about two solids in each litter. If the white on Jake
>>>came from double merle ,Neither would have been
>>>posible Rex
>>I would have to say no also. mike
>
>Well, cannot argue with the numbers.
>
>I bred a black/brindle with white spot on chest female
>to a blue merle. Several pups had massive amounts of
>white. Pink noses. Pink pads on feet. Pink eyes.
>The female was not of my breeding.
>Made the cross because of the great mouth on the
>female.
>Kept a female. black/brindle ringneck.
>Almost a clone of the mother.
>She died from the heat one day when it was 106.
>I had taken the better half to the doctor and the 6
>month old pup had turned over its water.
>Always be curious what would have come from it crossed
>on a black male.
>
>Jerry
Anything is possible. I had a dog that appeared to be a black and cream trim. He was out of two leopard colored dogs, no white. He thru albinos, but after discussion with my good friend, J. Richard, I realized Buzz was not really a black dog. His undercoat that covered his intire body was a cream color. He had faint spots inside his ears, and mouth.Many yellow, or buckskin colored dogs are born with spots, or brindle, and it will dissapear in a few days after birth. Richard told me Buzz carried merle gene in his undercoat,it just wasn't visable thru his heavy black guard hair. Anyone seen this? could be same thing with the brindle? Why can brindle colored Plotts, and Julys, skip several generations and then have litter of leopard pups? Been my expeience that after one gen. of non lep colored dogs, in our breed, it want reapppear. The older I get, the more I realize how complicated this is. Rex

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