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Date Posted: Sun, Sep 23, 07:06:52pm CST
Author: Dan McDonough
Author Host/IP: 74-36-148-240.dr01.nwmd.wi.frontiernet.net / 74.36.148.240
Subject: Re: Merelikins, Swerles, and Pie Balds ????
In reply to: Rex 's message, "Re: Merelikins, Swerles, and Pie Balds ????" on Sat, Sep 22, 06:08:59pm CST

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What in the world are those? Just three
>of
>>>>>>many
>>>>>>>>>>>>color
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>patterns that can appear in breeds with
>>>merle
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>brindle genes. Some breeds do not allow
>>>>mating
>>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with merle to a female with brindle, or
>>>solid
>>>>>>>>>>blacks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and blues to tan trims ,or fawns to any of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>above.Reason being,each mating compounds
>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>factors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>genetic modifiers can have either positive
>>>or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>negitive, and to various degrees. I'm sure
>>>>>many
>>>>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>seen a white deer with spots, Pie bald, or
>>>>>>>>>mulatto?
>>>>>>>>>>>A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Merlikin", or properly, a Merlequin, has
>>>>>genes
>>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>both merle and Harliquin. "Swerles" are
>>>merle
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>brindle with modified color gene, often
>>>>called
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Camo". Very few of these are seen in our
>>>>>>>present
>>>>>>>>>>>day
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Leopards but I asure you they can
>>evenyually
>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>there. I've old photos of Plott Curs manys
>>>>>>years
>>>>>>>>>>>>back,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>showing them.Seen it in Julys. Great Danes
>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>real bad and then prohibited crossing
>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>patterns. The July breeders bred for
>>ability
>>>>>>>only
>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this crazy patterns persisted. Catahoulas
>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this..Five genetic modifiers that produce
>>>>>>white,
>>>>>>>>>>>>other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than outside influence. Me thinks we know
>>>>>>very,
>>>>>>>>>>>very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>little about the color "Leopard" ! There
>>are
>>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>informing articles on this subject, I've
>>>>>>studied
>>>>>>>>>>>>them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only to conclude it was way over my
>>>>>>>head,,,.Color
>>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only ONE of fourteen traits in a treedog.
>>>Rex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I've read a few of the more common books on
>>>>>>>>>>genetics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>none of which I have commited to memory for
>>>>>>>>>>certain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I got one from Jed Prendergast last year
>and
>>>>it
>>>>>>>>was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the most easy and informative of all that I
>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>looked at. It's title is GENETICS by
>Jackie
>>>>>>>>>>>Isabell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>In short it states that the locus M allele
>>>is,
>>>>>>>>"The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>most complex of all pairs (Mm)...The m
>>allele
>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>excellent example of pleiotropy--the
>>>>phenomenon
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>single allele causing a number of distinct
>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>seemingly unrelated phenotiypic effects.
>>>Even
>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>heterozygous, the M allele is associated
>>qith
>>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deafness ans well as occasional wall
>>>>>eyes...When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>homozygous the dogs usually have samll eyes
>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>blue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>or partly blue irises, and they often have
>>>>>>>>impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>hearing and fertility." Merle coloring is
>>>>very
>>>>>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>on my head. I wish I had a buddy who knew
>>>>more
>>>>>>>>>>about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>it. I think I'm going to have to call the
>>>>>>>>>>>university.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rex I really enjoy your post I learn from
>>>them
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>they make me think some to.You know me
>>>thinking
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>lol.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Here is a lengthy article on Canine Color
>>>>>Genetics
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Ramie
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>href="http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Col
>o
>>r
>>>G
>>>>e
>>>>>n
>>>>>>.
>>>>>>>h
>>>>>>>>t
>>>>>>>>>m
>>>>>>>>>>l
>>>>>>>>>>>">http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGe
>n
>>.
>>>h
>>>>t
>>>>>m
>>>>>>l
>>>>>>><
>>>>>>>>/
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Good article, all in one spot. Hard to absorb
>>>in
>>>>>>>one
>>>>>>>>>>sitting...kind of like Thanksgiving:). Takes
>>>>>about
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>week to eat everything you've cooked.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It is I have to read it about 10 times LOL....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Here is another....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ringstreaked, Speckled, and Spotted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>href="http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF
>8
>>/
>>>8
>>>>4
>>>>>6
>>>>>>.
>>>>>>>h
>>>>>>>>t
>>>>>>>>>ml">http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/
>8
>>4
>>>6
>>>>.
>>>>>h
>>>>>>t
>>>>>>>m
>>>>>>>>l
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Ramie
>>>>>>>> GREAT !!! now, we are thinking. In the
>>>>>>beginning;Gen.
>>>>>>>>1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth
>>the
>>>>>>>>living creature according to its
>>>>>kind:......25....and
>>>>>>>>God saw that it WAS good." I beleive that. I
>also
>>>>>>>>beleive there are some things we will never
>>>>>copletley
>>>>>>>>figure out; Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not
>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways" says the
>>>Lord.
>>>>>>>>"For as the heavens are higherthan the earth, So
>>>>are
>>>>>>>>My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts
>>>than
>>>>>>>>yours".
>>>>>>>> Thru the years scientist learn that what they
>>>>once
>>>>>>>>thought , was wrong, and come up with new ideas,
>>>>>only
>>>>>>>>to later learn, again, wrong. It seemed correct
>>at
>>>>>>>>that time.We just need to put all this in
>>>>>>perspective,
>>>>>>>>and keep learning!
>>>>>>>> James1:19 "So then, my beloved brethren,let
>>every
>>>>>>man
>>>>>>>>be SWIFT to hear, SLOW to speak[type!],and SLOW
>>to
>>>>>>>>wrath." Rex
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is a question for some of you fellas
>studying
>>>>>the
>>>>>>>genetic color phases. Is it possible for a black
>>>>>>>female to throw a double merle??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes and No…. Leopard Gene for Coat color has to be
>>>on
>>>>>>Multiple Loci and is a lot more complex that what
>I
>>>>am
>>>>>>about to try explain. If the Black female would
>>have
>>>>>>to carry Mm (merle) but be on the recessive
>>>>>>relationship of the multiple loci. In other words
>>>she
>>>>>>carried the gene you just can’t see it….She could
>>>>then
>>>>>>produce pups with MM (double merle). If she
>>carried
>>>>>>mm(non merle) then no she couldn’t have any pups
>>>that
>>>>>>was MM (double merle). Now please take in a count
>>>the
>>>>>>sire genes has to be at least Mm (merle) for this
>>to
>>>>>>work out. If he only carried mm(non-merle)there
>>>would
>>>>>>be 75% mm to 25% Mm and no MM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ramie
>>>>>I believe the sire in the case I was thinking of
>had
>>>>>to be Mm Thanks Perry
>>>> Perry, in my opinion a black dog can not produce
>>>>double merle, or albino.In 35 years I've never seen
>>it
>>>>happen. A double merle, likewise, cannot produce
>>solid
>>>>black. This is one way to test breed and see if the
>>>>white on a dog comes from double merle. A merle and
>a
>>>>merlikin, can both produce black offspring from a
>>>>merle mating. A merlikin produces same percentages
>as
>>>>a merle. Bred Jake to Pester[solid black/brindle]
>got
>>>>NO white. Bred him to leopard color female and got
>>>>about two solids in each litter. If the white on
>Jake
>>>>came from double merle ,Neither would have been
>>>>posible Rex
>>>I would have to say no also. mike
>>
>>Well, cannot argue with the numbers.
>>
>>I bred a black/brindle with white spot on chest female
>>to a blue merle. Several pups had massive amounts of
>>white. Pink noses. Pink pads on feet. Pink eyes.
>>The female was not of my breeding.
>>Made the cross because of the great mouth on the
>>female.
>>Kept a female. black/brindle ringneck.
>>Almost a clone of the mother.
>>She died from the heat one day when it was 106.
>>I had taken the better half to the doctor and the 6
>>month old pup had turned over its water.
>>Always be curious what would have come from it crossed
>>on a black male.
>>
>>Jerry
> Anything is possible. I had a dog that appeared to be
>a black and cream trim. He was out of two leopard
>colored dogs, no white. He thru albinos, but after
>discussion with my good friend, J. Richard, I realized
>Buzz was not really a black dog. His undercoat that
>covered his intire body was a cream color. He had
>faint spots inside his ears, and mouth.Many yellow, or
>buckskin colored dogs are born with spots, or brindle,
>and it will dissapear in a few days after birth.
>Richard told me Buzz carried merle gene in his
>undercoat,it just wasn't visable thru his heavy black
>guard hair. Anyone seen this? could be same thing with
>the brindle? Why can brindle colored Plotts, and
>Julys, skip several generations and then have litter
>of leopard pups? Been my expeience that after one gen.
>of non lep colored dogs, in our breed, it want
>reapppear. The older I get, the more I realize how
>complicated this is. Rex

Seen it on a dog this year that was thought to be a blk. & tan. Turned out the dog was deaf or at least mostly. I noticed it when brushing the fur backwards on the dog. Not mine, but the gentleman who had her in all honesty, did not know.

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