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Subject: Re: Why Enter The Portal? Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 13:56:10 04/15/24 Mon In reply to: M3 's message, "Why Enter The Portal?" on 06:48:03 04/15/24 Mon I don't think the portal will ruin Ivy athletics, in particular, football. How many are entering the portal pre-normal graduation? It would be good to see the stats. Ivy recruits are extremely well informed. They don't just show up and then realize the crowds at their HS games were bigger. They will have had some inkling about that, as well as a lot of the other distinctive qualities, and challenges, of Ivy sports. For most of these athletes, it is still a step up in competition from what they were used to, and plenty competitive. On the other hand, a student can arrive on campus and realize this is not the place for him or her. It happens. A person goes through a fair amount of change between 18 and 22 years of age, and if you come to a realization about the direction you want to take along the way, so be it. I just don't see a ton of people bailing all of a sudden. These kids go through a lot of vetting by coaches during the recruiting process, which is why I do not foresee a significant change in the years to come. Why put yourself and family thru all that if you really think you could be playing a level above? Go for N'western and Stanford and ND from the outset. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: Princeton Recruit Author: Bengal [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:02:24 04/15/24 Mon It doesn't take a ton of underclassmen transferring to affect materially Ivy athletics (I don't use the term "ruin", at least not yet), especially outside of football. Dingle left Penn and now so has Perkins. Wolf has left Yale. Is Mack leaving H? Is someone leaving Brown basketball? In football will one of P's top RBs transfer out? One did last year, although opinion on the degree of loss that represented varied here. Some of this remains to be seen, since signing on to the portal does not mean you are definitely leaving. But NIL or the removal of the one year ban on transfers playing immediately or both seems to be a real problem. And whether this is good or bad, it remains to be seen if this gets balanced out by transfers into the League. P hardly takes any transfers in sports, but one was a 2 year QB starter and another was a multi-year NCAA T&F champion. I don't think either had to do with NIL. At the moment, the Ivies are not faring well under the new regime, IMO. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Must have recruiting on the brain Author: Bengal [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:11:33 04/15/24 Mon Or I pressed some button with a weird result. This was nothing to do with a Princeton recruit, lol. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Why Enter The Portal? Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:02:44 04/15/24 Mon The Ivies are in danger of giving back all the gains made with the FinAid wars that came out of the consent decree. The league was headed to D3 throughout the 1980s - Penn used to make noises about going to the ACC, but they needed the halo effect of HYP to goose their USNews standing. We are in a different environment. The public at large doesn't hold the 8 schools and their avatars in as high regard as it used to (see Gay, Claudine). The perceived value of the Ivy sheepskin is lower than it has been ever before. The loss of meritocracy in admissions (see SCOTUS: Students for Fair Admissions), the ramping up of antisemitism and anti-American protesting, the elimination of loyalty to alumni by diminution of legacy programs, the lack of intellectual diversity on campus, motions to tax university endowments... all of these things are hurting the schools in the public sphere. Money helps, but it isn't everything. It does no good for the alumni to act like Kevin Bacon in Animal House or Lt. Frank Drebin and insist that all is well and there is nothing to see here. The fact that the best Ivy freshman basketball player in the league, at the most famous school in the world has decided that it is in his interest not to graduate from Harvard, but rather pursue his interests elsewhere should be a watershed moment. Instead, people here think that the kid has a screw loose and is an ingrate. This is only the beginning. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Why Enter The Portal? Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:25:38 04/15/24 Mon "The public at large doesn't hold the 8 schools and their avatars in as high regard as it used to (see Gay, Claudine). The perceived value of the Ivy sheepskin is lower than it has been ever before." Among a certain segment of the population, sure. But that segment was probably never much interested, and cannot name the specific institutions. IMO highly unlikely an ivy applicant would have applied had he/she shared that view. I would argue their antipathy is directed toward the entire "class" of "elite" private schools, if not any college-educated individual. Applications to ivies have continued to increase dramatically, resulting in ridiculously low admission rates. And I hear all the time, and perhaps you do as well, about people who wish they could go but cannot for financial reasons or becasue they havge been told they have no chance of admisison. I doubt the application numbers would be so over the top if the degree value were not still perceived as being so high. And if a generalization about perceived low value were true, then we should be seeing significant numbers of transfers of non-athletes out of ivies. If you have a negative opinion of these schools, why did you choose to attend? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Rumor has it... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:42:40 04/15/24 Mon Word on some message boards are that Georgetown is offering Mack between $750k to $1 million. Of course, I can't vouch for accuracy... Could it be that the Ivy can't get guys like Mack in the future? Perhaps. But that doesn't mean that the Ivy is destined for Division III. There is plenty of daylight between the two. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Why Enter The Portal? Author: remember it well [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:44:23 04/15/24 Mon Well said observer. In the words of BD (not our Yale hero) "the times they are a-changin" but our league chooses to stand still. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: And what's your solution? Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:51:58 04/15/24 Mon Do you want to start paying guys like Mack and Wolf high six figures in NIL money? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: And what's your solution? Author: remember it well [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:22:33 04/15/24 Mon For starters our league should address the challenges caused by the transfer portal and NIL in a manner that shows it is not simply ignoring the impact that this is already having on the quality of our sports teams and the stability of our rosters. NIL money does not come directly from the schools so Ivy athletes should not be prevented from having the same opportunity for receiving monetary rewards that can come from NIL collectives (name, image and likeness rights). Granted the whole NIL picture is like the wild west with regulations that still need to be formalized. For now the Ivys need to participate in the discussion on NIL and determine how to best implement changes that will allow our student athletes to receive fair compensation for their talents. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: And what's your solution? Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:40:37 04/15/24 Mon OK, but what terms, specifically, would you suggest/approve? I'm seeing a number of people urgig the IL to become more modern, or something, but no specific terms they want the IL to adopt. Details matter. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: And what's your solution? Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:09:15 04/15/24 Mon People are ignoring the Brown lawsuit. Scholarships would be a place to start. That would also allow for NIL collectives to not count against finaid. Also - perhaps a thought about paring down the number of teams so that the major division 1 programs have similar resources to other schools - and aren't hamstrung by those sports which are cost sinkholes. Bus travel is enforced from Boston to Upstate NY because Harvard can't justify spending such funds for every team that plays at Cornell... or vice versa. But is it really right for 6-5 football and basketball players to have to travel 6 hours by coach when other schools like BC can charter to Syracuse? There are other rules - like the prohibition on multi-team basketball tournaments in consecutive years. It could also free up funds to pay for opponents to visit Jadwin or participate in multi-team tourneys instead of complaining "nobody wants to play us" But no, the powers that be are infallible. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: There are three basic options Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:20:50 04/16/24 Tue 1) Don't offer any NIL money 2) Offer non-competitive NIL money that may or may not be enough to keep guys from going to other mid-majors and 3) Offer competitive NIL money that may or may not keep Mack and Wolf from going to Power conferences. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: There are more than three basic options Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:42:49 04/16/24 Tue 4) Offer athletics scholarships which can't be decreased by independent NIL monies (in select sports, subject to gender equity) 5) Invest more in select sports (subject to Title IX) to compete with the national Division 1 marketplace in student-athlete perquisites (training table, travel, gear) and promotion - even if it means diminishing the funds available for sports like rowing, fencing, squash, etc. 6) Eliminate archaic rules on scheduling (starting later than other NCAA D1 conferences, limitations on multi-team tournaments) and travel Either act like a D1 program, or get out of the sandbox. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: There are more than three basic options Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:02:20 04/16/24 Tue 4) and 6) won't make a difference. Scholarships are already baked into our competitors' packages. We're going to have to come up with NIL cash on top of any scholarships. At best, scholarships may help us keep players from mid-majors. They won't help us keep players from the Power Conferences. Schedules have been around forever. The only thing that's materially changed is the NIL deals. 5) Lots of luck robbing Peter to pay Paul in the Ivy. In any event, I seriously doubt that Wolf and Mack are transferring because they liked the swag more at UM and (presumably) Gtown. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: There are more than three basic options Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:18:03 04/16/24 Tue The suggestion that it's all about money is taken. But to your point: Scholies that don't disappear with NIL income (unlike Ivy Financial Aid) is MORE MONEY for the student-athletes. Scheduling for maximum tv exposure isn't in their interest? Especially in the NIL era? Playing more Power 5 opponents in Hawaii or the Bahamas (or the 1-AA football playoffs) isn't in the players' interest in the NIL era? The Ivy fan base loves holding on to rules established by dead white conservative men and now held in place on football and basketball by progressive women... So odd. Cultish in a way. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: There are more than three basic options Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:55:00 04/23/24 Tue https://www.thefp.com/p/kids-skip-ivy-league-for-southern-schools It's happening. Don't forget to cash out your CDO swaps before you end up like Bear Stearns. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Interesting article Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:08:12 04/23/24 Tue Although I had to laugh a little at the notion that southern colleges differ from northern ones because it is the latter group that has "ghosts of dead white men." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: There are more than three basic options Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:40:42 04/23/24 Tue Rather than get into a sentence-by-sentence deconstruction of the Bari Weiss universe, let’s just say that Joisey, which since time immemorial has exported more students than any other state — not %, numbers, more bodies than either New York or California, for example — has been sending kids west, south, north, and east for many decades. The idea it’s much better publicized now is all to the good, because they should go where they fit, not where they or their parents live, or THINK they should want to go. The idea that this will have any discernible effect on the Ivies in the near future is a misguided fallback on the idea that there is some magic list of 2000 students that compose an ideal Harvard class (for example). In fact, the ideal class is one of thousands of selections of 2000 of the 25,000 fully-qualified applicants. There have been 10-20% of admittees who have been turning down Harvard forever, and it’s part of the game. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Shooting the Messenger Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:58:33 04/24/24 Wed I know Bari Weiss isn't your cup of tea, so... https://www.natesilver.net/p/go-to-a-state-school There are way too many ostriches in this room. Change or Perish. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Depends on the messenger Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:57:33 04/24/24 Wed We all have our own anecdotal sources. Mine differ a great deal from yours. A poll of opinions held by Americans who don't much believe in things like science or education doesn't carry weight with me. If a poll showed a majority of those polled think the moon was made of cheese or that God has a summer house on Jupiter - as I suspect some parts of the country may fervently believe - I wouldn't rush to claim NASA should initiate a cheese mining program or a Jupiter pilgrimage. I note that Silver said he applied to Harvard. I'm willing to bet it's an 85.365% probability that had he been accepted, he would have attended (BTW, some nationally prominent conservative writers local to my area have been sending their kids to ivies.) I agree that if one's goal is to "find oneself", an ivy school may not be the place and state schools can be a better choice. But that's nothing new. And from what I see, the typical student usually has some pretty clear ambitions when they attend. As for the amount of premium, this article completely misses the fact that a majority of ivy students don't pay full freight, which even cursory research reveals. He may have a point that there are disappointing trends recently. Some of us recall challenging political times of long ago. Silver is a bit too callow to know much about how colleges navigated those times. I think it's a bit early to pronounce the patient is dying. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:18:53 04/24/24 Wed If the Ivy degree was still held in the same esteem, would we be seeing the undergrads transferring out? It's one thing for the grad transfers to accelerate, but if a Yalie and a John feel that the time on campus ain't worth the degree... what then? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: It's not like they went to Hofstra or Valpo Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:05:53 04/24/24 Wed If you think that Ivy degrees are worth THAT much more than U of Michigan or Georgetown, all power to you. But I wouldn't expect your view to be universally shared. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's not like they went to Hofstra or Valpo Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:16:20 04/24/24 Wed Many here do. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: "Many" and "here" are doing some awfully heavy lifting there Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:14:41 04/24/24 Wed Among the posters on the Board who share your views that Harvard and Yale are light years ahead of Michigan and Princeton, we're talking what? 10 guys? 20? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wish this Board had an "edit" feature part 678 Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:26:00 04/24/24 Wed Michigan and Georgetown. :) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:54:02 04/24/24 Wed If five years from now Danny Wolf is playing in the NBA, he's probably going to think that transferring to Michigan was a good idea, even though he knows that making it to the NBA from Yale was and is a possibility. If ten years from now Wolf is still in the NBA, we'll all think that transferring was a good decision. But if five years from now he's playing in Europe and ten years from now he's got a mundane desk job somewhere in Corporate America while his friends from Yale are thriving in their careers and getting together at the Yale Club in Manhattan, he's going to be wistful. So we'll see. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:00:37 04/24/24 Wed Somehow I think the Michigan grads working on Wall Street would love to have him at their firm when he graduates, much less playing on their Lawyers League hoop team https://www.quora.com/Is-the-University-of-Michigan-a-good-school-to-get-into-Wall-Street [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:26:03 04/24/24 Wed If the ivy degree is universally held in low esteem by undergrads, why are nonathletes not universally transferring out? And why did you attend? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:55:07 04/24/24 Wed Because the degree signified intellectual capacity in the employment marketplace when I and others attended. Too many here would see a dead canary in a coal mine and blame the canary for dying. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:05:43 04/24/24 Wed Surely the Ivy League experience is different for athletes and non-athletes. Maybe someone has a study they can contribute to the discussion, but let's take Danny Wolf as an example. He's played two years at Yale, won an Ivy Championship and now wants to consider (at least) a potential professional basketball career. Where is his best chance of realizing that dream? If he stays at Yale, he'll be practicing every day against an inferior player. He'll play 3-4 guarantee games versus high level D1 opponents where he'll have a chance to showcase his skills. If he goes to Michigan, not only will be at a comparably academically strong institution (and its' alumni network), but he'll facing a physically equal opponent in practice EVERY day (good for improving your skills), get top quality coaching (I love James Jones and his staff but let's give Michigan's staff a slight edge in player development) have the BEST facilities available for development, be on a campus that embraces D1 athletics with a Big Ten football game at home six times a year, hefty NIL pocket money, a considerable Northeast/Jewish population and the elimination of the what if? question for the rest of his life if he doesn't do this? So let's not diminish the Ivy League degree, let's embrace the seizing of an opportunity that very few Ivy League (to start) students ever get. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:38:18 04/24/24 Wed I agree completely about differences between athletes and nonathletes, but IMO that supports the argument against generalizing about lessening appeal of the degree drawn from a currently high number of athlete transfers or current campus protests. And to our observant colleague, the conclusion about the degree opening doors to your desired career path is exactly why many HS students have looked, and will continue to look, to the ivies, notwithstanding Mr. Silver's general opinion (which BTW expressly acknowledged the value of the degree in certain very common ivy graduate paths). [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:23:23 04/24/24 Wed You and I are good but let me set up a hypothetical. You are overseeing the hiring at a financial institution. Would you look more favorably at a graduate from Davidson, Northwestern, Boston U who played four years of basketball vs an Ivy League grad who did not participate in athletics? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:17:55 04/24/24 Wed My spouse oversaw that function at such an institution for a while. I am told they looked for ivy grads, assuming other factors were good. If someone was top of class at other schools they might be viewed comparably. Athletics could help, depending on what they did, because it could show organizational and team skills, etc., but were not a primary factor. Of course each department has its own profile - investment banking very different from floor trading, for example. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:06:52 04/24/24 Wed My spouse must have hired three or four hundred senior editorial and financial staffers for billion-dollar corporations and consultancies over the years. I never heard her refer to athletics as a differentiator (although possibly a plus). In contrast, she was maniacal about hiring graduates who could write effectively and in multiple forms, ESPECIALLY financial hires. She was constantly turning down honors accounting grads from programs you would know, who couldn’t compose a two-paragraph memo. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Ask Danny Wolf and Malik Mack Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:30:58 04/26/24 Fri Interesting hearing the perspective from two women, I wonder if guys might look at it a bit differently. Thanks for the responses. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: I mean... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:53:45 04/15/24 Mon Plenty of guys on this Board are absolutely aghast that Dartmouth basketball's union is asking for minimum wage... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I mean... Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:10:04 04/15/24 Mon I'm not aghast as much as I hope they fail completely. Let's put it this way. Of all the college presidents in America, which one is most likely to pull a Ronald Reagan to PATCO (Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization), "You're all fired and your union is hereby decertified"? Based upon the very limited data so far, I would nominate Ms Sian Beilock. I can't believe all that has happened in American higher education in the past year. After sixty years of the pendulum only swinging in one direction, there are the first signs of green shoots, of the pendulum finally starting to swing in the other direction. I'd like to see President Beilock err on the side of making a strong statement, "For one academic year only, we're dropping varsity men's basketball as an extracurricular activity. We'll maintain and continue to pay the coaching staff, charging them with building and leading a reconstituted team in 2025-26." America turns its lonely eyes to you, Sian Beilock. Godspeed. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I mean... Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:41:22 04/15/24 Mon No doubt the NIL changes things but in reality Ivy League players have always had the option to transfer and at least get an athletic scholarship. Yale's Ezekiel Larry is a very good college defensive end, but at 6'2 " 240 lbs he has almost zero chance of playing in the NFL. To give up a Yale education for a little NIL money is nuts! In addition, if Larry is a first team All-Ivy defensive end his last two years at Yale, he may get an NFL look, but send him to a major FBS program and he's just another DL player at that level. Dozens of NFL players have come from the Ivy League over the years, but even many very good FBS players don't make it beyond the NFL pre-season. I would much rather leave camp with an Ivy League degree than a communications degree from some major FBS program. Stanford or Duke may be the exception, otherwise you'll be working at Enterprise or selling Viagra after graduation. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:22:58 04/15/24 Mon For Ivy fans to oppose unionization efforts because playing for an Ivy team is an honor and a privilege.... ... but still want the Ivy to step up to form collectives to pay players big NIL money. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: Bengal [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:41:11 04/15/24 Mon You can think that if you want to, but this is apples and oranges. On the one hand, you have college athletes claiming an employer-employee relationship that does not exist. On the other, a voluntary effort to pay college athletes ostensibly for their NIL. I am not in favor of the Ivies going the big bucks route just yet, but it requires constant review and some steps in that direction may be necessary. I find it a bad situation and don’t really have answers. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:10:35 04/15/24 Mon I oppose unionization efforts for the exact opposite of the reasons you cited. To wit, As Bengal said, college athletes are not employees of their universities. Period. As a lawyer, you should appreciate that more than most. I hope that all eight of the Ivies will not initiate or assist any efforts by their alumni or local businesses to pay their athletes. NIL deals might be legal, but I want as few of them as possible in my conference. If Yale beating Auburn is to be the last ever victory of an Ivy League team in the NCAA men's basketball tournament, so be it. It was a great, dramatic win -- I still get jitters thinking about it. Like hitting a half-court shot at the end of practice, Yale-Auburn was "one to end on." I think we'll be fine. As a conference, we won from time to time when we didn't have a single player who could start for the opposing team in March Madness. It may not be quite as fun, but sometimes you don't get everything you want in life, a lesson I hope those Dartmouth players learn the hard way. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:17:38 04/16/24 Tue If one believes in meritocracy what is wrong with student athletes being treated differently than the rest of the student body? They represent the best of the student body, now more than ever. While many other students are denigrating the reputations of their institutions through radical political positions and protests based on marxism and antisemitism, athletes bolster their school reputations through their diligence and dedication to their craft. It is right and proper for them to have the opportunity to earn athletic scholarships and NIL money. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: Tiger69 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:09:10 04/16/24 Tue Gee, Son of Eli, I think you’re onto something 🤔. Since football players represent the peak of meritocracy and “the best of the student body” as well as “bolster their school reputations”, we should be throwing money and extra perks at them — perhaps a degreed Dept. of Sports., so they wouldn’t have to mix with those other less worthy radicals, protesters, history and physics majors and the like.. We must learn from the Alabamas, Georgias and L.S.U. whose players clearly represent the leaders of tomorrow 😁. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: remember it well [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:20:38 04/16/24 Tue I think you could have made a more constructive set of opinions without the sarcasm. I share SOE's admiration of our Ivy student athletes. With all due respect to Alabama, Georgia and LSU why not learn from Stanford, Duke and Northwestern. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I understand your point but... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:54:45 04/17/24 Wed But to me, it's a very open question whether Stanford and Duke are in a Power Conference in five years. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I understand your point but... Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:16:15 04/17/24 Wed Neither will be left behind as they represent the best of the best, especially Stanford, which is annually in the Top 5 for the Director's Cup, which symbolizes across-the-board excellence. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The Big 10 didn't seem to care Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:25:45 04/17/24 Wed If the Big 10 didn't want Stanford, why would the Big 12? And would Stanford even be able to stomach being part of the Big 12? As for Duke, UConn has won back-to-back titles and is a good bet to win a third. And... no (football) Power league wants them. (Of course, all this is predicated on the ACC imploding in the next few years...) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Big 10 didn't seem to care Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:39:22 04/17/24 Wed I’m really excited to replicate Duke basketball and its five members of the transfer portal. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I understand your point but... Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:42:33 04/17/24 Wed The Big 10 didn't want Stanford? Can you provide some proof of that? I wasn't aware of those discussions. Perhaps Stanford and Cal together looked at the ACC as a better option (weather, new rivalries with Duke/UVA/UNC). Certainly better academic institutions than the Big XII. UConn is geographically undesirable. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I understand your point but... This Is How It Worked for Millennia Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:56:18 04/17/24 Wed Of course the Big Ten didn't want Stanford. Two years ago, the Big Ten was like Genghis Khan or a Mormon husband in a polygamous household. The Big Ten looked at all the pretty girls and the not-so-pretty girls of the Pac 12 and decided that he wanted to sleep with USC and UCLA. Then all the other girls said, "Hey, look at my beautiful hair and perky breasts." The Big Ten took another look and said, "Yes, I can see that. The one in Seattle and the one in Eugene do have attractive figures. I like the special dresses you put on for me. Okay, you two can come, too." Everybody else was left behind. Including without a doubt the really smart but not so pretty girl in Palo Alto. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:21:46 04/17/24 Wed What AO said. Stanford is actually PAYING the ACC to let them play in the conference. Usually it's the other way around. There's no shortage of discussion on the topic. Feel free to google "Why the Big 10 didn't want Stanford" or something comparable to catch up if you wish... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:27:04 04/17/24 Wed I believe you, but don't you find that hard to believe? Maybe they didn't want the prettiest girl coming to the dance, which is what Stanford would've been. And how could they not invite Duquesne (only kidding, of course)? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:35:53 04/17/24 Wed Stanford is the smartest girl at the dance -- by far. But she ain't pretty. And the market has once again, as it has for the last 200,000 years of human existence, voted on whether it wants the smart girl or the pretty girl. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:04:02 04/17/24 Wed I did Google it, on your suggestion, and it came down to media market size, that the Bay Area was not large enough. Was Portland (Oregon/Oregon State) or Omaha (Nebraska) large enough? Have a feeling they didn't want two outstanding academic places, including the premier academic/athletic place, infringing on enrollment. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:38:59 04/17/24 Wed I think that the Big Ten had two considerations: local media market size AND attractiveness of football brand name. You are correct that, from the perspective of all sports, Stanford is the most successful athletic department in the country. One thing that I've never understood is why Ivy athletic departments and Harvard in particular are so proud of sponsoring so many sports. Literally, nobody cares about women's rugby. Why would any school sponsor women's rugby, other than to get more female athletes on campus to offset football for Title IX purposes? What was shocking (at some level) is when Stanford announced that it was dropping about a dozen sports for financial reasons. So even if you're winning national championships in a sport like water polo or sailing or rugby, it's difficult to justify the financial cost, not to mention of course the REAL cost, the slots at the admission office. So the market has once again spoken. Nobody -- as in the Big Ten or any other conference -- finds your hair to be beautiful or your breasts to be perky because you have a national championship water polo team. Football talks. Everything else walks. That's why USC, UCLA, Washington and Oregon were deemed attractive while Stanford was not. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:55:03 04/17/24 Wed Excellent points, for sure. To try and answer your question about sponsoring so many sports, from my experience in the league and talking with admissions people, is that diversity in the undergraduate pool is a prime motivator. I remember discussing this with our admissions guy and he said, "we could fill this place with nerds who score 2300-2400 but what kind of a place would we have?" It's the extra curricular stuff that gets one applicant the edge- being on the debate team, doing community service work, playing in the band, being on a team- those things lift one over another. Maybe playing a non-glamorous, non-revenue sport shows a level of commitment to other students and to the school that the nerdy, 2380 SAT student who's spending his/her free time in the library, doesn't. And they're all paying customers, right? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Incoming ... Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:59:02 04/17/24 Wed "Literally, nobody cares about women's rugby." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:10:38 04/17/24 Wed Except those 25 paying customers who may be leaders in student government or 4.0 students lifting the entire department's GPA. Remember saying the same thing about women's basketball 20 years ago? Or about fencing three weeks ago? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:27:22 04/17/24 Wed I'm not defending the status quo, far from it. But human nature is human nature. And history is history. Here's a fascinating factoid from the Grey Lady herself: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/magazine/dating-after-50.html?searchResultPosition=1 According to a 2018 study by two professors at the University of Michigan who analyzed 186,000 messages between heterosexual subscribers on an unnamed "public and large" online dating website, at what age do you think a man peaks in his attractiveness to women? Need to think about it for a second? This would include I presume the usual desired attributes of physical attractiveness but also professional accomplishment, maturity and economic means. The answer is 50. A man peaks in his attractiveness to women at age 50. After sifting through the same database of heterosexual subscribers on the dating website, the Michigan researchers found that women peak in their attractiveness at. . . . Wanna guess? 18. A female subscriber on Match or Tinder or whatever peaks in her attractiveness to male subscribers at 18, the earliest age at which she is legally allowed to join, and declines uninterrupted from there. Well, the 50-year-old man is the Big Ten and the SEC. The 18-year-old woman is football. The twenty-five players on the women's rugby teams and the fans who follow them are 50-year-old women, which the New York Times in this article calls "invisible." It's not fair. It's not right. But once again, the market has spoken. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:50:11 04/17/24 Wed Who cares if it's not a spectator sport. How many years did we/do we endure empty gymnasiums (WBB) or empty stands at field hockey venues or fencing salles? Are we basing the continuance of these sports on revenue generation, fan attendance or the fact they bring a different, diverse group of students to campus? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:16:55 04/17/24 Wed I'm not disagreeing with you as much as I'm saying the market disagrees with you. In this case, the market is the conferences with the money and the leverage, that is, the Big Ten and the SEC. I'm certainly with you in the following way: Over the very very very long run, what determines the prestige of a university? In the short run, it might be bumped up by a winning football or basketball team, but only a little and not for long. In the longer run, a university's prestige is impacted by Nobel Prizes its faculty wins and Rhodes Scholarships its seniors win. And like it or not, fair or not, a university's prestige is impacted by its ranking in the US News Best Colleges list. That's why schools like Columbia and Penn have gamed the system so aggressively. But in the very very very long run, a university's prestige is determined most directly by the achievements and renown of its graduates. I hope that science advances so much that all of us could still be around in a century. Ivy League and other elite universities are doing so much social engineering in their student bodies right now that I am fascinated by how and how much their alumni achieve and accomplish over the next century. There might not be too much difference between them because certainly all of the Ivies are playing out of the exact same playbook. The same desire for diversity, the same political screen and so forth. But I wonder whether the alumni of, say, 2024 Ivies will contribute and achieve the way that the alumni of 1964 Ivies did. What about 2024 HYP and 1964 HYP? There are a lot of other variables in the mix, too, of course, but I want to see what happens in the long run to these whining, hyper-left-leaning students. I don't think it will be pretty. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:38:51 04/17/24 Wed I can't disagree with you and I have a feeling that's mutual. The Ivies have NEVER related anything in Athletics to the market. Never invested (in a big way) in upgraded/new arenas for their most visible sport, basketball, had to twist/break some arms to get a four team tournament, play only 10 football games with a limited number of practices, on and on. But to attract a more diverse student body, YES, that's worth the investment in a coaching staff, uniforms, travel, practice gear, etc. Give me 28 full paying, academically qualified students who might normally go to Wesleyan, Tufts, Skidmore or Catholic U to play (insert sport here) and we'll have them play here. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:51:20 04/17/24 Wed One thing we agree on is that we're not disagreeing with each other. But I will point out that, unlike when I applied to college, the Ivies these days have no problem attracting and matriculating diverse student bodies along whatever dimension of diversity we want. With ample financial aid and very low admissions rates, the Ivies today truly are "assembling" their student bodies in one of the grandest social engineering experiments ever undertaken, maybe the most ambitious ever. Seriously, what historic social engineering experiment ever is more ambitious and broad in scope than what the Ivies and Ivy Plus universities are doing right now? The only question is whether one of those desired dimensions of diversity is female rugby players. I'm afraid that's the one where you and I don't see the world the same way. That's okay. Different strokes for different folks. I will say that I am confident the administrators at Ivy League universities, right or wrong, spend very little time thinking about how to improve our student bodies relative to Wesleyan or Tufts, as fine as those two universities are. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... The Market is Not Interested in Equity or Fairness or Being Nice Author: David Perry (Not in a While) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:53:34 05/05/24 Sun Sorry, but the historian in me has to point out that the Ivies related a whole lot of things in athletics to the market. . .up until about 1930. :-) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:53:04 04/17/24 Wed Anyone who has been around here for a while knows what I am talking about. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... Author: Rufus T [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:52:28 04/18/24 Thu Could not agree with you more Sparman. So predictable what will trigger a bloviating response [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Too easy... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:24:22 04/17/24 Wed https://www.nbcsports.com/olympics/news/usa-womens-rugby-qualifies-paris-2024-olympics USA! USA! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Incoming ... Author: Tiger69 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:33:53 04/24/24 Wed Woman rugby player to An Observer, “Hey, you gotta problem?”. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I wouldn't have used those terms, but... The Return of The Dowry Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:31:30 04/17/24 Wed In what form is Stanford paying for the privilege of flying 3,000 miles across the country on a Tuesday morning to play a mid-week basketball ga Is Stanford not receiving a full-share of the ACC's television revenue distribution? Don't tell me that Stanford is actually paying cash out of pocket for the privilege of flying 3,000 miles. Think about how hard it's going to be to recruit to Stanford now. Still a world class academic institution of course, arguably now the world's "greatest" university. But if you as a student-athlete (remember that term?) actually plan to attend classes to take advantage of those academics, you now know that virtually every away game is a three-day turnaround for you, including six hours of time zone changes. Anybody else here ever find out on a Monday that they needed to be on the West Coast for a Wednesday meeting, knowing that they needed to be back in the office for a Friday meeting? Who wants to deal with that every other week? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I overspoke Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:50:04 04/17/24 Wed My apologies. Stanford is playing in the ACC for free. https://www.si.com/college/stanford/football/two-reasons-stanford-joining-the-acc-at-a-discounted-rate-makes-sense-for-both-parties They are not paying out of pocket for the privilege for playing in the ACC (although they probably would have had the ACC demanded it). [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I overspoke Author: Ghost [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:06:39 04/17/24 Wed That's more like it..... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Michigan Author: remember it well [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:21:38 04/17/24 Wed Speaking of the Big Ten, Michigan football just got hit with 3 years probation for recruiting infractions [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Personally, I think its inconsistent... Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:35:32 04/16/24 Tue RIW — Tiger69’s sarcasm is mildly understated, apart from Eli’s view being against maybe five or six explicit league policies. If you want Northwestern, go to Evanston. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: It’s not the 1950’s anymore. Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:01:20 04/16/24 Tue The Anti Defamation League just issued their Campus Antisemitism Report Card. Columbia and Cornell got D’s. Harvard was graded with an F. Me thinks the Ivy League has more pressing issues regarding their academic reputations than whether athletes can receive NIL money. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It’s not the 1950’s anymore. Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:21:55 04/16/24 Tue The ADL, like any observer, will have its own biases. Barnard D Brown D Columbia D Cornell D Dartmouth C Elon A Harvard F Princeton D Penn D Yale D So basically, Elon ++, Dartmouth + and Harvard -. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It’s not the 1950’s anymore. Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:43:21 04/16/24 Tue Duke B University of Florida B University of Arizona B University of Miami B University of Central Florida B Florida State University B The Ivy League can learn something from these schools. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You say you're a big Beilock fan Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:29:49 04/16/24 Tue The entire point of her WSJ piece was that paying athletes completely undermines the student experience. There is nothing in her op-ed that is remotely consistent with endorsing an NIL collective. So if she's being intellectually honest, we should not expect Dartmouth to be forming NILs anytime soon... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You say you're a big Beilock fan Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:35:43 04/16/24 Tue Yes, I understand and agree. Do you have me confused with Son of Eli? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]