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Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
RedWin
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Date Posted: 14:49:06 12/03/24 Tue
In reply to: Uptown 's message, "Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …" on 08:46:48 11/29/24 Fri

The biggest draw is hosting the game in NYC every year. Half the students are gone for Thanksgiving break and who wants to play the game in Ithaca in late November? There has been nearly zero promotion for the Empire Cup game and Cornell still had a nice turn-out. If our joint athletic departments got off their A and promoted the game it could be a nice fund raiser for both programs. The money to support Big Red athletics is in the NYC metro area and not Ithaca. Both teams could do something fun like agree to have their kick-off teams comprised of all seniors, who are not starters, etc.

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Replies:
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Alternating schedule idea


Author:
voy vey
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Date Posted: 09:28:08 12/04/24 Wed

In the 70's, the Princeton/Dartmouth game was the finale when at Palmer, and the season opener when in Hanover -- presumably for weather reasons.

If "no one wants to travel to Ithaca in November" for the Empire Cup, what about a similar scenario?

In even years, the first Ivy games for each school are:
Columbia @ Dartmouth
Brown @ Cornell
The season finales are:
Dartmouth @ Brown
Cornell @ Columbia

In odd years, the Ivy openers are:
Brown @ Dartmouth
Columbia @ Cornell
Finales would be:
Dartmouth @ Columbia
Cornell @ Brown

The "snowy" schools get a home game every year in September, and travel to (relatively) warmer climes every November. The Empire Cup gets a NYC send-off every other year (as it does now); in the alternate years, Cornell still hosts, but on a late September Saturday.

(Brown/Dartmouth is hardly a "rivalry," so disrupting that finale hardly seems like a drawback to this idea.)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: That arrangement ended because...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 10:05:56 12/04/24 Wed


Someone (presumably Princeton) complained that Dartmouth got too much of an advantage by opening at home every season.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: That arrangement ended because... Not So Fast, My Friend


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 10:30:31 12/04/24 Wed

Your supposition doesn't make sense, GG. It's more of an advantage to finish at home.

It's like choosing to start on offense or defense in football. For generations, head coaches chose to start on offense, to hopefully seize the momentum early.

Now almost all head coaches choose to start on defense, because they'd rather have the advantage of receiving a kickoff later in the game. Coaches finally realized that advantages compound later in the game when there is more information available. That offsets giving your opponent the chance to strike first.

It's like a home team in baseball always choosing to bat second even though they are entitled to choose to bat first.

It's why, in college football overtime, the team which wins the coin toss always defers starting on offense in favor of playing defense first. There's more information available when you have the ball second.

The same phenomenon is true over the course of a season. You want to stockpile your advantages late in the season, when you have more information about what you need to accomplish to achieve your goal, which presumably is the season-long conference championship.

Think about your favorite example of all time, 1995.

With seconds left in the game against Dartmouth, Princeton coach Steve Tosches made the correct and unassailable decision to kick a field goal for the tie, instead of going for a touchdown and the win.

As a result, Princeton was the outright Ivy League champion for 1995.

That's the advantage of more information. There's more information available later in a game and later in a season.

Go Green, you were very quick to point the finger of blame at Surace when Princeton seemed to switch season finale opponents from Dartmouth to Penn several years ago. You whined and complained that Surace didn't want to face Dartmouth at the end of the season with a championship on the line.

It turned out of course that, not only were you wrong, you were completely wrong. When Princeton, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia and Cornell all shuffled their season finale opponents, the initiative came from *YOUR OWN* alma mater. It was Dartmouth that requested the change, inconveniencing five other schools.

(That Dartmouth would prefer to end every campaign against Brown instead of Princeton boggles my mind. Forget what the football coach wanted; I'm surprised that the admissions department didn't resist the optics being changed. If I'm running the admissions department in Hanover, the one institution in America that I most want to be associated with is Princeton University. Who doesn't want to finish the season against the #1 university in the country which kind of looks like Dartmouth in terms of undergraduate focus? What an epic mistake.)

I suspect the same is here. I'll bet your boys bitched about always finishing the season on the road. That explanation makes much more sense than an opponent complaining about you starting the season at home. Logic, my boy, logic. Try to use more of it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: That arrangement ended because... Not So Fast, My Friend


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 11:04:03 12/04/24 Wed

"Someone (presumably Princeton) complained that Dartmouth got too much of an advantage by opening at home every season."

You will notice he's big on "presumptions" and "guesses". Perhaps Tony Reno is distressed to find out he wasn't recently actually finalizing the details of his contract with Rice.

Here are some additional facts taken from the Dartmouth athletics website: https://dartmouthsports.com/sports/football/opponent-history/princeton-university/76

The teams switched from always playing in NJ starting with the 1964 season. From 1964 through 1976, games between the two schools played in Hanover were in October in what was typically not only the third game of the season for Dartmouth, but also typically not its home opener. During that period the cumulative results were 3-3 for games played in Hanover.

Beginning in 1977 through 1988, the teams opened their seasons in September at Dartmouth. During this period, the cumulative results were 3-4 (i.e., Dartmouth under .500).

Beginning in 1990, the teams played their games at the end of the season regardless of location.

So, Princeton won more games than Dartmouth when opening the season at Hanover. While I don't have copies of correspondence or telephone transcripts from this era, this information does not exactly compel the conclusion (presumptive or otherwise) that PU might have complained about an unfair advantage for Dartmouth.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: (Corrected)


Author:
sparman
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Date Posted: 11:08:55 12/04/24 Wed

"Someone (presumably Princeton) complained that Dartmouth got too much of an advantage by opening at home every season."

You will notice he's big on "presumptions" and "guesses". Perhaps Tony Reno is distressed to find out he wasn't recently actually finalizing the details of his contract with Rice.

Here are some additional facts taken from the Dartmouth athletics website: https://dartmouthsports.com/sports/football/opponent-history/princeton-university/76

The teams switched from always playing in NJ starting with the 1964 season. From 1964 through 1976, games between the two schools played in Hanover were in October in what was typically not only the third game of the season for Dartmouth, but also typically not its home opener. During that period the cumulative results were 3-3 for games played in Hanover.

Beginning in 1977 through 1988, the teams played in September at Dartmouth. During this period, the cumulative results were 3-4 (i.e., Dartmouth under .500) for games in Hanover.

Beginning in 1990, the teams played their games at the end of the season regardless of location.

So, Princeton won more games than Dartmouth when played early in the season at Hanover. While I don't have copies of correspondence or telephone transcripts from this era, this information does not exactly compel the conclusion (presumptive or otherwise) that PU might have complained about an unfair advantage for Dartmouth.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: (Corrected)


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 11:41:44 12/04/24 Wed

In a world which seems to have lost its moorings with regard to facts, it's good to see that, somewhere, someone still responds to suppositions with facts.

sparman, you are a candle of light in a world increasingly dark.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Just going by a contemporaneous SI article


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:29:58 12/04/24 Wed


Entitled "A Late Season Homecoming" that covered the 1991 Dartmouth-Princeton finale (which was for all the marbles).

They said a "malcontent" (that's a direct quote) complained about Dartmouth's (supposed) advantage of opening at home every year--even though the evidence didn't back that up. (Of course, we were generally lousy in the 1980s whereas Penn and Princeton were strong).

Can't find the article on the internet anymore, but if anyone wants to go hunting for it...

I surmised that it was Princeton because the league stuck us with them as the finale. "You guys don't want Dartmouth to open at home every year? Fine--you guys go to Hanover for the finale every other year."

Again, if anyone else wants to guess who the complainant was, I'm happy to entertain theories!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: That arrangement ended because...


Author:
Ivy Patriot
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Date Posted: 10:34:35 12/04/24 Wed

No one at Dartmouth wanted to end with Brown. The schedule was changed because the Dartmouth academic schedule changed and exam week conflicted with the end of the season. The idea was a quick trip to Brown every other year was less of a grind than traveling to New Jersey. If they could get a do-over the vote to finish with Princeton would be unanimous.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I hate to admit it, but...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 12:33:31 12/04/24 Wed


I'm actually warming up to closing with Brown.

While I loved closing with Princeton, there *is* something to be said for letting the seniors end their careers with a win, and the underclassmen starting the offseason on a high note.

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