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Date Posted: 03:28:49pm 12/16/05 Fri,
Author: ol' Salty
Subject: Question for JS
Do you think two winning records in eight years is acceptable?
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Re: Question for JS -- Observer, 04:02:19pm 12/16/05 Fri, [1]
The Canisius coach and the Fairfield coach are in desperate need of a turnaround, if you know what I mean. Still could happen, but time is running short for both.
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Re: Question for JS -- JoeStag, 04:31:41pm 12/16/05 Fri, [1]
2-8 is not acceptable, but I assume you are tryng to refer to TOT record which is only 7 complete seasons 2 winning, 1 at .500 and 4 losing.
But I think you have to look at it that the first 4 seasons were not good, and TOT was on the brink of losing his job. After that I think TOT has really improved as a coach, and his last 3 seasons in the MAAC is 36-18. Which is a major turnaround for this program.
I also think that TOT has played a very tough OOC schedule every year, with mostly away games, and a home court where we have not had a big home court advantage (bottom line he does not load up on cupcakes at home). So measuring him by overall record might not be the best or only way of measuring. I think if you look at his MAAC record which is 5 of 7 seasons where we finished .500 or above...... that is clearly another turnaround for this program.
Are we at where we need to be. NO. Has TOT turned Fairfield from a bottom half in the MAAC to top Half in the MAAC. YES. Acceptable won't be until we Challenge for the MAAC Title every year, and get to the NCAA's once every 4 years on average.
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Re: Question for JS -- JoeStag, 04:35:33pm 12/16/05 Fri, [1]
And the most important thing is do I feel TOT can get us to a Championship and consistently have us challenging for a MAAC title.... which is Top 4 in the standings. I say Yes to both.
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Re: Question for JS -- ol salty, 08:21:49pm 12/16/05 Fri, [1]
I'm kinda assuming this season will end under .500
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Re: Question for JS -- ol' salty, 08:30:22pm 12/16/05 Fri, [1]
Do you honestly think TOT is a good in-game x and o coach?
And you are content with top-4 finish in a bad league every year?
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Expectations vs Goals, and x's and o's -- JoeStag, 06:45:21am 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
Salt, as I said before my expectations are that we are top 4 in the MAAC almost every year, and win the MAAC once every 4 on the average. That is what I feel is accepetable. I also think thats our goal of most Tier1 and Tier2 teams at Fairfield. BTW I do not think any MAAC School besides Lasalle has acheived that goal.
But I am not content with that. I want to be in a league with schools that we compete with academcally for students, and that is with Fordham, Holy Cross, Providence, Villanova, Loyola, St Joes and the NYC MAAC schools like Manhattan and Iona. I think our goal should be to be successfull in a league like that.
But we are in the MAAC, and thats what we have to compete with, and thats where we have to be successfull, before we think of moving up. Our recruiting is somewhat resticted by the league we are in. Sure there are exception recruits like Deng Gai, but for the most part AAU and HS coaches tell kids they are a Big East, A10, or MAAC level recruit.
Can we pull of Gonzaga. I would love to ..... but there are probably 100-150 Mid Majors that are striving for that goal, with only Gonazaga suceeding, and 4 or 5 others making a good push..... to be much better than their league.
As far as TOT as an x's and o's guy. I feel he is a very good defensive coach, and needs to be better on the offensive end. But I do not think x's and o's play a big part in Basketball coaching..... we are not talking football here. I think its more important that a coach prepares his players to play hard, to play as a team, and play smart. Execution is much more important thatn x's and o's.
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Re: Expectations vs Goals, and x's and o's -- GuyF, 01:53:56pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
"Our recruiting is somewhat resticted by the league we are in."
JoeStag, no offense, but this is ridiculous. Generally speaking, the MAAC schools all recruit from the same pool and level of players. Each school has had exceptions--both positive and negative--but to suggest that you guys are struggling because you're in the MAAC makes no sense.
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Re: Expectations vs Goals, and x's and o's -- JoeStag, 04:42:28pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
GuyF,
Maybe I was not clear....... I was not suggesting that our current issues are due to restictions on MAAC recruiting.
I agree 100 that all MAAC teams go after the basic same pool of players because AAU and HS coaches tell players they are MAAC players.
My point was that it is very difficult for a MAAC team to be consistntly better than all the rest of the teams in the league ...... Like Gonzaga..... for the same reason you suggested, All MAAC teams are after the same pool of players. Its not like that for Gonzaga.
Lasalle was probably the only MAAC School that was consistently better than other MAAC schools. And Penn/Princeton have ruled the ivy.... but in most Mid Major leagues, it is cyclical of which teams are the best.
So I agree with you.... may point was not clear.
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Re: Expectations vs Goals, and x's and o's -- GuyF, 10:45:08pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
Gonna disagree with you again, in three areas:
1. LaSalle was only consistently better in its last 4 years of MAAC play. They were not better from the league's inception through the year before Simmons got there.
2. Can't compare this situation to the Ivy League, because of the scholarships issue. Totally unique situation.
3. In the past 10 years or so, Iona, Manhattan and Siena have been the best programs in this league. It has to be said that they have been "consistently better" than most of the rest of the league.
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Re: Expectations vs Goals, and x's and o's -- JoeStag, 05:19:23pm 12/18/05 Sun, [1]
I am having trouble explaining myself on this point. My point is that Gonzaga has consistently been much better than their 2nd best team in their league. They are so much better than their league, its not even close.
There has been no MAAC team that has been that much better than the league for a long stretch. Manhattan had a good 2 year run, but not Gonzaga-like.
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I think the real question is -- JoeStag, 09:09:08am 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
Is the improvement that we have had continue to bigger and better things like MAAC championships....... or is it just a blip on the scale, and we will return to a lower division of the MAAC.
Was the recent record due to the specific players we had, or was it the program and Coach that has elevated???? Some fans say players like Gai, Goode, and Kudjo had negative impact on us winning, but I think they were a main reason. That question will be answered over the next couple of years.
And are we better positioned in NYC Catholic schools and New Jersey schools to pick up good players. Is our reputation as a basketball school getting better????? I know that in the 80's and 90's we lost all that we had built in the 60's and 70's.
I am pretty sure that any evaluation of TOT or any coach is that we are consistenly in top 4 of the MAAC and we win our fair share of MAAC championships..... which I would like to see at least 1 in every 4 years.
A good program wins even in down years. If our players return heathly, I see no reason why we cant battle for top-5 in the MAAC. That was my prediction at season beginning, and I think thats attainable.
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Re: Question for JS -- Outsider, 01:50:49am 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
As an outsider, huge college hoops fan, but no links to Fairfield or any local school, I just live locally. While I like TOT there has been mediocre hoops and moreover, bad press and scandal in his time. I agree he plays a brutal OOC, but that should help in a mid major conference, yet it has not. I have no answer as to why, but someone has to start looking at the coaching to find out. I hope the Stags get it going, such a good school deserves better, but I am not sure TOT can deliver it.
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Re: Question for JS -- JCM, 10:23:41am 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
I don't think we should be showing TOT the door. The program has moved forward. Imperically speaking, he has outperformed O'conner, Buonagaro and Cormier. (I thought the timing was right with Mitch and Terry I wasn't so sure about Cormier).
That being said, TOT is not a great X's and O's coach. You only need to look at the last two games to figure this out. We had no answer to Fordham. The game plan didn't work and had no defensive response. We had two fouls to give in the loyola game. We should have fouled. We could have used up the clock without loyola ever going to the line.
I think TOT has brought a in a talent level above that of the other coaches. Buonguro couldn't evaluate talent or recruit. Cormier set his recruiting expectations too low. While TOT has improved the talent level greatly, he has underachieved with the talent he had. Should last years team really have been 15-15 and 4th in the Maac? I think most would say we had the talent to finish higher. I would venture to say we should have won 20 games each of the previous two seasons. And this team is more talented than loyola and St. Joe's. Every year we lose games not because of our talent level but because of our game strategy and management. I believe this is the primary criticism of TOT and I think it is to some extent justified. While I like TOT, I think improvement in this area is required to take the program to the next level.
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Re: Question for JS -- alum, 01:51:33pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
"And this team is more talented than Loyola and St. Joe's"
HUH?????
I would even argue Loyola.
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Talent Level -- JoeStag, 04:15:49pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
I think JCM meant St Francis, not St Joes.... or at least I hope he meant that . With our current healthy/eligible roster I think we have some really good talent, but its all at the guard positions. When you look at a 5 man unit, I think our PF/C positions do not match-up with any team MAAC team..... no matter who we put out there.
But when Max comes back, he has All MAAC ability.... assuming he comes back with the skills of the old Max.
And if you add both Mamadou and a healthy MOS, I think we at least have better than average MAAC talent
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Re: Question for JS -- JCM, 05:12:38pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
Boy what a typo. This team is more talented than St. Francis. Fairfield does not possess the talent of Saint Joe's second team. I meant to type St. Francis. Sorry to garble my meaning with this typo.....
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maybe we need to hire mythbusters -- ol' salty, 02:12:41pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
the prove that talent has improved.
Who on this team is better than DP?
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Re: maybe we need to hire mythbusters -- JoeStag, 04:06:05pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
Whose DP?????? Do you mean the player that TOT turned into a double digit scorer/rebounder and led the nation in rebounding :-)
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Darrin Phillip -- JCM, 05:37:19pm 12/17/05 Sat, [1]
DP was not heavily recruited out of high school. He joined Fairfield and contributed marginally his first two years before developing into an all-Maac MVP (should we start this debate again) his junior and senior years.
If we are comparing the freshman Phillips to Herbie Allen or John Han, I would say both come to the school with more talent than phillips. Whether they will develop as Phillips did remains to be seen.
The true point about talent level however is that it can not be measure by one player. The question isn't was Phillips a better player than anyone on the current stags. The question is - is the talent level on this team overall better than the talent levels under the previous coaches. I think it would be impossible to argue that it is not. After Phillips, is the second best player on that team better than MVS, Todd, Maxwell, Bell, Mamadou or Han? How about the third best player? Another way to ask the question would be - what player from another other team over the past 15 years would be good enough to start on this team.
The top player or maybe even the top 2 players from some past teams might crack the top 5 but when you look at overall talent level, this team stacks up favorably to most teams in the past. And as far as the bench goes, the first 4 guys off the bench on this team would be ahead of any number 6 man on any stags team in the past 15 years.
While Middleton and Carter do not possess the talent level of Deng Gai or Rob Thompson, what centers recruited by Cormier or Buonguro were better than Middleton? Andy Woodli? Sunday Enojukian? Tom Squeri? Swartz? This program has had 5 legimate centers over 20 years and 2 of them were recruited by O'Toole (Thompson and Gai).
The Stags lost some senior leadership with Goode, Gai and KS. They had some key injuries with Hawkins and O'Sullivan. They have suffered a major setback with the suspension of Maxwell. A key player for the team this season is not yet eligible (Mamadou). I guess if we measure the program over the last 8 games we could say it has moved backward. But these events are short team issues that are not indicative of where the program has come from, or where the program is going.
This team played a tough out of conference schedule. But even with a tougher schedule than any of the schedules played by Cormier, O'connor or Buonguro, this team will win more than the 8 games these other coaches won during their rebuilding years. In fact, I'm still not convinced this team won't win 13, 14 or even 15 games.
Without Shannon Bowman, the 1996 stags could not win a game. With Bowman they were the best team in the Maac capable of playing with any team in the country including top 25 BC and #1 North Carolina. Maxwell is not as good as Bowman. But his return will make a big difference to this team.
The question as to whether the program is moving forward or backward needs to be answered. But it is too early in the season to draw any conclusion.
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Re: Darrin Phillip -- ghostman, 03:30:57am 12/18/05 Sun, [1]
re: Darren, he had his coming out party vs. Iona last home game his freshman year. He was the reason FU went to the NCAAs that run in '96.
He more than contibuted his fresh/soph year.
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Really? The facts say something different -- JCM, 01:26:16pm 12/18/05 Sun, [1]
For the Record Darren Phillips scored 93 points his entire freshman season. Han has scored 95 points in only 8 games. So lets not change history here. Darren Phillip was not a major contributer his freshman year. He only played in 16 games and when he did play he averaged 5.2 points and 4.3 rebounds per game. He had a good game against Iona the last home game of the year. He also played well in the Maac tournament. But in those four "Great" games and the 12 others combined he played in he still didn't score as many points as Han already scored this season. In fact, playing at center and power forward, Phillips didn't even out-rebound Han. Han has a higher per game rebounding average than Phillips.
I'm sorry, you can't make the point Phillips was a better or more highly touted recruit than many of the folks TOT got. Gai, Thompson, Han, Todd, Allen, among many others were better recruites than Phillips. They may never develop into the player Phillips became (many people credit TOT for this development, but I don't) but they all came to Fairfield more ready to play and all contributed more their freshman year than did Phillips.
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Re: Really? The facts say something different -- Observer, 03:43:06pm 12/18/05 Sun, [1]
If I'm not mistaken, Phillip played only a handful of games his freshman year because of the whole thing with the NCAA about having the academic requirements for eligibility. Think he missed part of his sophomore year also. That would explain his low production as an underclassman. Don't think he was highly recruited coming out of high school.
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Phillips played 16 game twice as many as Han -- JCM, 05:48:48pm 12/18/05 Sun, [1]
Ol'Salty raised the question who on this team is better than phillips in response to my point that O'Toole has brought in better recruites. My point stands. Han has been to date lights out better than Phillips. He accomplished in his first 8 games more than phillips accomplished in a full season (16 games). My earlier comments about the overall quality of the recruites speak for themselves.
I don't give TOT all the credit for improved recruiting, some of the improvement is associated with the stags playing in a better venue. But the recruiting has been better and TOT deserves some of the credit.
Don't get me wrong about Cormier. I think Cormier did a good job of recognizing talent in Phillips. Phillips and Francis were not highly recruited but went on to be all MAAC. I think PC deserves credit for this. But overall the quality of player brought in by TOT is better than PC, MB and TOC.
While I am not happy with this teams start, I don't think it is indicative of where the program is heading overall. I'm not ready to judge this season on 8 games. I'm not willing to judge TOT on the last 8 games just I was not ready to judge him on the 10 game win streak the team had 2 seasons ago. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Its time folks started being less reactionary and recognize that while there is still plenty of room for improvement, there has been incremental improvement in the program since TOT came on board.
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