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Date Posted: 10:59:19 03/31/06 Fri
Author: carson1
Subject: Well, ain't it the truth...
This is frm a column by Lou Dobbs on cnn.com. I just really thought it was plain but truthful. He is talking about the summit that is taking place in Mexico right now between the US, Canada and Mexico.
"For that matter, in the United States, this president and Congress seem hell bent on defying the popular will. The American people, in poll after poll and survey after survey, are revealed to be opposed to the direction of the war in Iraq, illegal immigration, amnesty, a guest-worker program, the outsourcing of jobs and certainly the outsourcing of our security. It has become increasingly clear over the last several years that the least represented constituency in either Congress or the White House is the middle class, working men and women who are the foundation of our country."
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- 23, 11:16:06 03/31/06 Fri [1]
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but this is a country of immigrants. They should have to go through the legalization process, but it's completely antithetical and impossible (IMO) to ship them all back to Mexico. If we really want to look at solutions to this problem, first thing we need to do is raise the minimum wage. There wouldn't be so many jobs that didn't appeal to unemployed americans if they paid a living wage for them. Out of all the ideas I've heard to "solve the immigration problem," McCain's make the most sense to me. Over the next dozen years, slowly move all the current illegals through the legalization process, including forcing them to learn English.
And, IMO, Lou Dobbs has become excessively protectionist these last few years. There are positives and negatives to outsourcing. I don't know why it has become such a pet issue for him, but I don't know if he's really seeing the whole picture. Should the people in India not be given a chance to better themselves financially if the opportunity arises?
But you know I agree with him on the notion that this president seems hell-bent on defying the popular will when it comes to Iraq. What popular will there was when the war began was completely manufactured by this administrations lies and exaggerations, anyway.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Jes, 11:32:24 03/31/06 Fri [1]
1 - Raising minimum wage. I believe we need to look at this differently. I can't afford for the price of everything else to go up to compensate for the raise in minimum wage (I'm talking groceries, gas, etc.). Minimum wage should be what we pay our working high school students for working at McDonalds. They don't have bills to pay (to the extent that an adult does). That's what minimum wage should be for. Adults should have a complete seperate pay that (as long as they are full time workers) would cover a minimal of bills (rent/gas/food). Maybe a minimum wage for students and a minimum wage for non-students. Anyone who puts in at least 40 a week and is really working should have enough for the basics (and wake up America because the basics are not sattelites, car payments and bling bling). It's a damned shame that there is a group of people doing better on welfare than they would working.
We are a country of immegrants. However, I don't think our great-grandparents made the current citizens pay for their healthcare and taxes. This is what needs stopped. We shouldn't have to pay for them all.
I can't, for the life of me, explain why the administration we have right now thinks they know better than we do, but won't explain it to us. I have to assume they're hiding something that is wrong - otherwise they would be forthcoming. They have the "sheep need led" mentality (that I hate about the Democrats, and am surprised to see it in the Republicans too). There are so many opportunities in todays world to unzip that sheep suit. I just think they're out of their decade and look the fuck out when our generation takes over (in 3.5 years).
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- chico781, 12:32:36 03/31/06 Fri [1]
I agree with you, 23. This country was built on immigrants and somehow this country became isolationist and xenophobic. That is precisely what I think Lou Dobbs is. I think it's a good idea to give them work permits because this way you'll have them all accounted for and we can charge them taxes. If you took out all of the illegal immigrants out of the country today, the country would fall apart tomorrow. Also, in regards to us paying for their healthcare, etc, there is a point to this but what a lot of people do not realize is that these illegal immigrants pay more in sales taxes than what they actually take out of healthcare, etc.
In regards to outsourcing, I think you have to have balance. You shouldn't put all of your eggs in one basket and you should have to keep eggs at home as well. Countries like India, the Philippines, etc (who get a big bulk of the outsourcing piece) also buy our products so in a way we're getting that money back. Our economy cannot sustain itself so we need other countries to buy our products. We live in a global world. All of these people who wish we could just close our doors to the rest of the world are insane.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Robert, 12:40:16 03/31/06 Fri [1]
If this were happening 150 years ago, the government would have another revolution on its hands.
Alas, we're the Starbucks generation. Complacency is the new birthright.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- chico781, 12:45:48 03/31/06 Fri [1]
Also, I would like to add that the solution is not an ugly fence. What this country needs to realize is that these immigrants will continue to come here as long as there's injustice in their own countries, be it economic, political or social. It was easy for the US to mess up Latin America using the CIA and now they're seeing the consequences.
I could honestly spend all day talking about this so I'll stop for now.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Robert, 12:53:21 03/31/06 Fri [1]
I'm not isolationist, but I do believe that there is a right and a wrong way to do things. I have sympathy for some illegals, but do you know what would happen to you if you tried to illegally sneak into Mexico?
Bad things...very bad things.
My position is that illegals are the least of America's worries at the moment. We have a Constitution that has been sodomized. That needs some serious attention...and fast.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- chico781, 13:07:28 03/31/06 Fri [1]
You say that very bad things would happen to me if I tried to cross into Mexico illegally. Can you provide an example of that? I think you're saying that on an assumption.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Jes, 13:48:20 03/31/06 Fri [1]
But Chico, you're saying they spend more on sales tax than they would take from our healthcare system. Wouldn't they be buying that stuff anyhow? I probably pay more sales tax ... in fact I know I have if we include homes/cars - than I've taken from the healthcare system. I don't think those things are related enough to make an argument out of. Help me out?
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- chico781, 13:59:39 03/31/06 Fri [1]
Jes, I'm not saying that it's fair that they're taking out of the healthcare system. Clearly, it's not but what they put in by just paying the salestax more than makes up for what they take out of the system. I'm not justifying the fact that a lot of illegal immigrants take out of the healthcare system. All I'm doing is stating that this country is still getting more out of them than what they're getting out of the country, if that makes any sense. Like I said, it's not fair because obviously we all pay sales tax as well as income taxes, etc. My point was just to point out the fact that they're still putting more into it than they're taking out.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- 23, 14:16:24 03/31/06 Fri [1]
Jes - wouldn't at least that specific problem be solved by legalizing them?
I know there's this "line-jumping" argument being bandied about and how it would be unfair to those who are sticking to the rules and going through the legal immigration process, but like I said in another thread, life isn't fair.
Make them go through all the rules necessary to become legal and make them learn English, but legalizing them seems to be the only practical solution to me.
I was watching The Daily Show the other night, and Fareed Zakiara (sp?) was on again. He made a really good point: why is the president looking to the French for solutions to immigration (the temporary guest worker program - that's what France has done and has resulted in a very angry, unintegrated immigrant populace - see last year's riots for proof) when America does immigration better than any country in the history of the world?
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Jes, 14:18:34 03/31/06 Fri [1]
But see, not only is there healthcare to consider. They aren't paying income tax. They drive, but they can't have liscenses, therefore don't have car insurance. They aren't helping to fund our failing public schools system that their legal children are attending.
I can totally understanding wanting to come here - where all the money is supposed to be. I don't begrudge any citizen of any country that. But I think they also have to be accountable while they're here. Legal immigrant are. There has to be some middle ground.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- 23, 14:28:17 03/31/06 Fri [1]
That's why I'm saying we should make them legal immigrants. Then they have to pay all the taxes the rest of us have to pay.
Those who aren't interested in becoming american citizens will have to go back home. Which sounds pretty daunting, but if we had a more thorough and secure system that didn't allow for hiring of illegals (unless they were currently going through the citizenship process), we wouldn't be such an attractive place to come to if they knew we wouldn't hire them. Sure, there are some employers who would skirt the law, but I don't think there would be very many who could successfully do so if there was a stricter set of rules to track who your employees are. In other words, if employers weren't able to designate those employees as "expenditures" on their own taxes, the benefits of hiring the low-wage illegal immigrants under the table would disappear.
I'm sure I'm ignorant of all kinds of tax rules and legalities, but it doesn't seem terribly complicated to me.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- chico781, 14:32:46 03/31/06 Fri [1]
That is completely true and I think that by legalizing them we'll reach that middle ground. What a lot of people are suggesting is to build an ugly fence across the border and to make it tougher for them to come in. Fine, go ahead and build a fence. I doubt it will work to be honest but that's another issue. What do you do about the ones already here? I think that's where legalizing them is the best solution. That's not to say that they should automatically be legalized. I think that first we should give them their work permits, which will allow the government to keep track of them and even tax them. Even that is only a part time solution, in my opinion. The real solution will be when all these countries where these people are comming from improve and make it better for their citizens to stay and work there. That, my friends is where the solution lies but no one is talking about that. Just build a fence, they say. That'll work.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Jes, 14:37:35 03/31/06 Fri [1]
I wonder if the true issue is that it would cost more to make them legal citizens than it does to pay these expenses - from a government standpoint?
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- Robert, 14:46:02 03/31/06 Fri [1]
Chico
If you sneak into Mexico:
- First time you get deported immediately
- Second time you get slammed in prison immediately
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- chico781, 15:05:38 03/31/06 Fri [1]
Jes, you may have something there.
Robert, those are indeed bad things but how are they so different from what happens to you here? Except, I don't think they throw you in jail here. I am not sure to be honest so I won't speak out of turn there. It's just the way you said it made it seem like they would torture you or something.
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Re: Well, ain't it the truth... -- carson1, 13:13:50 04/06/06 Thu [1]
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Lou Dobbs, I just was struck by how truthful his comments were about the government that is "for the people, by the people" is not listening to a damn thing that we say. We voted for these assholes, so that they would speak to the issues as we define them, not for them to just ignore us and go off willy-nilly and do what they want in the end.
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