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Date Posted: 14:36:06 01/17/09 Sat
Author: sparkle no spoiler for the ep.
Subject: Oh no!
All I will say is that I've never shouted that at the tv until I saw a certain person looking at her locker mirror. I broke into tears.
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Watching it for the 2nd time right now -- rmartin, 14:40:28 01/17/09 Sat [1]
I liked it!
I don't think they've found the 'real' earth yet.
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*hehe* I am too. -- sparkle, 15:04:38 01/17/09 Sat [1]
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Just found an interview of Ron Moore on the episode -- Chani, 15:46:43 01/17/09 Sat [1]
I don't know what you mean exactly by "real" Earth but the Earth issue is addressed and R. Moore answered:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html#more
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Thanks for the link -- rmartin, 19:39:26 01/17/09 Sat [1]
We see the flashback of Tyrol in that marketplace, and it seemed like a planet full of lots of different kinds of people, not just 12 different models. Is that right?
Yes.
This was the first thing that struck me, There's a fracking whole lot more than 12 models here!
That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.
Still not buying this answer. My main reason for saying it's not the 'real' earth comes from the prophesy. They've said it thoughout the show and even reminded us in the previous ep during the jump dreams. A leader with a terminal illness would die before reaching Earth. I know from Jossverse prophesies are tricky things, but this seems iron clad.
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Re: Thanks for the link -- Chani, 16:47:02 01/18/09 Sun [1]
I don't think that Ron Moore lied and I don't think that reaching Earth has ever been the goal on this show; it's more about an internal journey, about surviving and learning what being human does mean.
What if the leader was Kara Thrace? She did die before they reached Earth, and it's Starbuck that led them there, not Laura Roslin.
I know that she wasn't ill like "having the cancer"ill, but something has been eating her inside from day one, a mental disease of self-destruction.
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My review after second watching -- Chani ***SPOILERS***, 15:17:27 01/17/09 Sat [1]
What a wonderful show! Television won't be the same without Battlestar Galactica. I can say that, despite the little Helo screentime, I loved 4x11!
Yes it was dark and death was the leitmotiv, or rather suicide was the leitmotiv of the episode.
The obvious one being Dee shooting herslef. Thanks to the "previously in BSG" I knew she was going to die but I didn't necessarily expect a suicide. It was nicely built up and done eventually. I loved all her scenes, especially her scenes with Apollo. But let's talk about the Fifth first.
I am not disappointed by the revelation about the Fifth at all. I liked my theory about Boomer but I accept this truth and understand it. It's anti-climatic to have the Fifth being already dead but at least it makes sense, besides Ron Moore obviously wanted it to be anti-climatic since he decided to reveal it in this first episode of the final half season. I didn't want my show to revolve around the Final Fifth mystery so I'm satisfied
The Fifth had to be either already dead or already switched on when the Final Four got their awakening, and it wouldn't have had a big impact if the Fifth had turned to be a character we weren't already familiar with...so Ellen is a good choice.
Also it gives to Saul/Ellen relationship a new tragic and romantic layer and I love that. Ellen's death was one of the most beautiful and tragic moments on BSG. When Saul realised he was a Cylon, the tragedy reached a new peak for he'd made her drink her death because she had betrayed the resistance and worked for the Cylons. I didn't think the writers could top that...but they did. Ellen and Saul were long time lovers and spouses, their relationship was the stuff of legend, together 2000 years ago and destined to be reborn and be paired again. Ellen's second death tastes even bitter now, since it ocurred before the too late awakening of the Final Five, before Earth, before they both knew how deep the bond between them ran. Poor Saul. On the other hand, he knows now how special his marriage was and can hang on that.
The episode was filled with neat and poetical echoes and parallels. Lee/Dualla echoed Saul/Ellen for instance, the counterpart being Sharon/Helo, the happy couple. Dee and Lee were still married even though they had split, something that Saul and Ellen had done before (as hinted at in the mini-serie and by Bill when he mentioned Ellen's sleeping around). Dee's last date with Lee could have let us hope for a second chance for the pairing, something that Dee's suicide destroyed, just like Ellen's death on New Caprica ruined the second chance that Earth!Ellen let Earth!Saul hope for. Of course Dee chose death, probably because she thought that her relationship with Apollo couldn't work anyway, and above all because she had nothing left since Earth was not the promised land but a waste land. Ellen didn't choose death on New Caprica,; Saul made the choice for her, but in a way she also committed suicide, perhaps even knowing it (the scene is ambiguous), taking the cup from Saul's hand and drinking the poison that killed her.
I also loved the family scene in which Helo played with his daughter, chasing Athena around (after all she's the cylon!)and how Dee played the babysitter for Hera afterwards. How cruel, how sad...but the right set-up for her suicide. The devastated Earth was not the end of the world for Helo and Sharon, because they had each other and Hera. A true family. Dualla had nothing.
Another neat idea was Laura being speechless after she came back from Earth and got out of the ship, and later when she burnt the Prophecy book while saying that she had been wrong. It was the perfect echo for a tongue-tied Leoben running away, just after he freaked out and told Kara that he had been wrong. It made him so vulnerable and so human, no longer the prophecy guy who knew more than anyone else. He was just like Laura Roslin. By the way Mary was terrific in the scene.
New echo with Starbuck referring to the hybrid's prophecy and then burning her own dead body, a self-immolation that wasn't quite a real suicide, but a sort of metaphorical one! And here we've got echoes within echoes for in the season 3 episode in which Starbuck's ship was destroyed Kara seemed to embrace death.
The double body stuff was also echoed by Tyrol's two shadows meeting on the wall before he touched it and remembered, one of my favourite bits from the episode. The shadow-print of Earth!Tyrol was a wonderful chilling idea. This is me on the wall. Awesome!
Another favourite is Tigh, any Saul scene is a gem, from the moment he asked Bill to have a chat and was simply ignored by the old man, to the ending scene in the sea. Michael Hogan rocks! Edward James Olmos was okay in the first scenes, and in the morgue scene but I think he overacted in the Bill-trying-to-commit-suicide-through-Tigh. I still have problems understanding him sometimes and I had to guess most of the fox story.
It was a nice touch to make Tigh chat with another "most likely to commit suicide" candidate: D'Anna. Remember when she kept commiting suicide through Centurions in order to find out who the Final Five were? She couldn't shhot herself but ordered Centurions to do so and forget. She was the fox of the story eventually, and when Saul entered the sea we knew he wouldn't drown (if only because of the webisodes), it was a fake suicide attempt (just like D'Anna's used to be when she was still immortal thanks to downloading, and seeking revelation on the Five) to grasp the truth he'd been waiting for. About his life on Earth and about Ellen, about the Fifth. I love the idea of the sea becoming the metaphor of a lost memory, and how Saul's hands struggled to free his Ellen/memories from the rubble.
As for the revelation of the 13th tribe being all cylons? It's a cool twist but it makes my head hurt. There's something I don't get, chronologically. Kobol was supposed to have been destroyed 2000 years ago too, and the tribes, including the 13th came fom there, didn't they? There's also the problem of skinjob cylons already existing at the time. There seems to be a time issue. Could there be time jumps as well as space jumps? It could explain the Starbuck mystery.
So a very dark episode filled with great stuff, intense moments, emotions and precious little details. And there's one thing that make me smile: the "Frak Earth" tag on the wall of the Galactica!
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Re: Oh no! -- Esmerelda, 19:34:13 01/17/09 Sat [1]
I thought it was a mixed bag of an episode.
To get the main complaint out of they way, I'm sick of the mystical final five light show. The show runners seems to have decided to take 'All of this has happened before' as literal instead of figurative and I find it incredibly goofy and off putting. It detracts from the real world analogy that was the show's strength in the early seasons for me.
I'm underwhelmed by Ellen as the Final Cylon. I just don't care and don't see why anyone on the show apart from Tigh would care. It just convinces me that revealing Tigh and Cheif to be Cylons when they did was a mistake because I doubted they had the balls to make any character higher than the two of them Cylons.
Now on the the stuff I enjoyed. I thought Dee's death was incredibly moving and needed. There had to be something to hammer home just how devastating the loss of Earth is to these people. While I'm not thrilled at yet another woman being offed (and I really think it's time some of the secondary male characters started joining the body count)Dee's a natural choice. She's been there since the start, she's technically a member of the 'First Family' and she's well liked amonst the crew. Dee's death hurts. It especially hurts because she's always been so solid and dependable and *there*.
I thought McClure and Bamber (who was great through out IMO) did a fantastic job, in fact much better than they did when the characters were married. There were a couple of little things Dee did that really set the old eyes to water. In the first scene where she's talking to Lee and he says he couldn't have done it without her, her reply implies that he *will* be able to do it without her. The second was when she hung up her wedding ring making it clear that with the date she was saying her goodbye.
I enjoyed scientist!Baltar being back and found it interesting how easily and naturally he slipped back into the role.
I'm intrigued by Roslin's crisis of faith and thought McDonnell was excellent.
I've read a lot of anti-Adama sentiment on the net about how he made Dee's death all about him and I agree with that, he's being an asshole. I also found it brutal to watch though, especially the look on Lee's face when he leaves the morgue. Adama at this point has descened into alcoholism, it's not pretty, but it does feel very real to me. The counter to that is Tigh is being the voice of (mostly) sober reason. I've also seen a fair bit of Olmos is hamming it up criticism but I'm not sure I agree, he's acting like a sloppy drunk, I think that's the point.
I found Leoben freaking out amusing as is the fact he's seemingly not know what he was talking about at all.
And, last of all, I enjoyed the Kara and Lee scene at the end as it's the first time I think Kara's ever put her own bullshit aside to be there for someone else.
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I loved every minute of it. -- sparkle, 17:10:24 01/18/09 Sun [1]
I think these last 9 episodes are going to blow our minds.
"It's amazing, what Dee was doing, the whole time -- she was getting Apollo mentally and emotionally ready to withstand what she had decided to do." to quote someone from another forum. I really felt that impact. All of the actors should get awards for this damned show. It's odd...I was thinking the other day that Ellen would be the final 5, but then dismissed it since she was dead. Don't know how to explain that one, but I'm content with it. I don't even know where to go with the Kara issue. That's just insane.
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Questions -- rmartin, 05:13:03 01/19/09 Mon [1]
If the prophesy says the leader will die before reaching Earth, does this mean Starbuck is the one?
If Six became pregnant on board the Galactica, could she have become pregnant by Tigh when he is also a cylon?
Has anyone told Six she is pregnant?
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Re: Questions -- Chani, 11:06:04 01/20/09 Tue [1]
If it isn't Tigh Caprica is a new version of Mary minus the virgin stuff!
Helo and Sharon had Hera; Tigh and Tyrol prove that the Five can procreate with both skinjobs and colonials...Methinks that the three races are very very very close DNA-wise, close enough to interbreed.
The timeline is still a bit confusing but the Final Five or the people from Earth, whose remains Baltar tested and IDed as Cylons, seemed to have existed a long time before the "evolved Cylons" – the new Centurions and skinjobs appeared – when the mini-serie began. The 13th tribe stuff is now very intriguing. Why did they leave Kobol?
The other tribes left Kobol for the 12 colonies 2000 years ago, just when Earth was nuked. There's obviously a link. Do we know the reason they left?
The Final Five could be even much older than we think, perhaps the last five survivors of a first lost humanity, doomed to survive and try again, make a new humanity over and over, hence the Final Five name and "The plan" and the "it happened and it will happen again". Skinjobs assumed that Final Five means Five of THEM and that they were 12 models, but they might have been mistaken.
The only weird thing is that Earth!Ellen only seemed to be aware of a Plan in the flashbacks we got, but I wouldn't be surprised if our Colonials from the 12 tribes turned out to be Cylons too, which would mean that everybody is both cylon and human at the end of the day.
Bottom line, someone is always the Cylon of someone's else.
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