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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- agatefan, 10/11/15 4:31:04pm Sun
Anyone who really
>thought Colgate would win those games was running on
>hope over reality. >If Colgate ends the season 5-1 in league play, a very
>real possibility, 4-2 would be acceptable to me assuming things
>look better over the next few years
I doubt there is even ONE player on the roster that would agree with you on this
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Re: Princeton dropping us from the schedule because we were beating them too often -- get em 'gate, 10/11/15 3:53:56pm Sun
>
>'gate80,
>
>Is that public information? Please quote your source
>and name the administrator involved.
>
>I mean Princeton is on a roll this year and they
>defeated Colgate football and 2 other PL teams
>soundly. Maybe I can write this decision-maker a
>letter of complaint?
>n
>Go 'gate!
With due deference to all, there seems to be much beating around the bush.
Adopting the Patriot League as its standard of excellence sets Gate's sites to the bottom the barrel.However this may be protested,the PL is a second rate league mostly fiiled with second rate teamms No one respects the PL.Gate played Yale with two games experience to none for Yale but was still the underdog.Weren't scholarships supposed to make a real difference?.
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Re: Princeton dropping us from the schedule because we were beating them too often -- Steve, 10/11/15 4:33:41pm Sun
>>
>>'gate80,
>>
>>Is that public information? Please quote your source
>>and name the administrator involved.
>>
>>I mean Princeton is on a roll this year and they
>>defeated Colgate football and 2 other PL teams
>>soundly. Maybe I can write this decision-maker a
>>letter of complaint?
>>n
>>Go 'gate!
>
>With due deference to all, there seems to be much
>beating around the bush.
> Adopting the Patriot League as its standard of
>excellence sets Gate's sites to the bottom the
>barrel.However this may be protested,the PL is a
>second rate league mostly fiiled with second rate
>teamms No one respects the PL.Gate played Yale with
>two games experience to none for Yale but was still
>the underdog.Weren't scholarships supposed to make a
>real difference?.
I don't know who doesn't respect whom but let's talk (again) about Princeton's football program. It is obviously on a roll this year and there are many readily understandable factors behind it including money. You may not call them scholarships but they have a way to pay for what they want- as a top school with a storied tradition and a great stadium.
That said, we lost yesterday and I just don't get why anyone needs to get upset about the fact. No, we don't need to belittle Colgate's own program, the PL or question whether or not scholarships are worthwhile as far as helping Colgate recruit. We are where we are and should simply try to make the best of it!
There are plenty of other challenges out there and no amount of backbiting is helpful now, is it?
I look forward to see Colgate's terrific and dedicated coaches and smart players do their best in the coming weeks.
Go 'gate!
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Re: Princeton dropping us from the schedule because we were beating them too often -- 'gate80, 10/11/15 7:46:20pm Sun
>>>'gate80,
>>>
>>>Is that public information? Please quote your source
>>>and name the administrator involved.
Colgate has been playing Princeton in football regularly for over a century. We have won 9 of 11 games with them the last 18 years, and 7 out of 8 the last 12 years. The 2 losses the last 18 years were a 1-point overtime loss in 2006 due to a missed extra point, and a fluky 14-10 loss in 2002 I was at which prevented our 21-game winning streak in 2002-2003 from being a 25-game winning streak. Princeton's future schedules for the foreseeable future have us being replaced by Georgetown and Davidson. Does anyone think this is to strengthen Princeton's schedule? Dartmouth made a similar decision a few years ago when they had lost 16 of their last 18 games with Colgate. Unlike Princeton, they were honest enough to say it was because the series was not competitive, but claimed it was because we played them after playing 2 or 3 games while for them it was often the first game of the season. Ironically, their last game with Colgate in 2011, which I attended, was also a decisive Colgate loss like yesterday's game.
I agree with get 'em gate and Gate Raider that our attitude shouldn't be "who cares if we lose to Ivy teams, and get blown out by FBS and good FCS teams, as long as we win 4 or 5 PL games a year". And while I agree with Steve that 1 loss shouldn't cause us to belittle Colgate's program, the PL, or call for Hunt's head, let's not fool ourselves - this was a BAD loss.
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Food for Thought -- The Lone Haranguer, 10/11/15 7:40:28pm Sun
Fordham wasn't good until their fourth season with scholarships. But the key thing they did to make the big jump was get transfers from FBS programs in key positions. First Nebrich (from UConn) at QB and now Medlock (FIU) and Anderson (Marshall) plus Pretlow at CB (Temple) and Klecko (Rutgers) at DL. If we continue recruiting the same player we always have (National Honor Society, three year starter, The Daily Fishwrap All-Star Team for Northern Bumwad County, Third team class B all-state), we're going to keep getting the same players as we always have. We need to go after transfers and, as I believe 'gate80 has advocated in the past, be aggressive within the confines of the AI. In all scholarship sports.
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- Steve, 10/11/15 8:27:26pm Sun
>>Another uninspired attitude and satisfaction with
>>being average. That kind of perspective gets you no
>>where. We are where we are and making the best of it
>>is defeatist. And, really, you don't understand why
>>someone would be upset with that loss? I hope Hunt,
>>the coaches and the players are upset with it. Colgate
>>should win 80% or more of its games with the ivy
>>league.
>
>AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course I am disappointed. So are the coaches and players and anyone with the best interests of the program at heart.
My point is this: that there is no point in kicking a dead horse. It's dead already. The loss is a loss. So... like it or not, we are where we are. That's not defeatist; it's realistic.
It's time to move on. Are you ready yet? The coaches, players and anyone with common sense can and will do so now since there is no other choice- apart, of course, from depressing others and wasting time. The coaches and players have to prepare for the rest of the season, something that the moaners on this thread seem all too ready and able to forget.
And so you can claim that 80% of Ivy games should be wins.
Not sure how you can expect or claim that without any context. But that's your choice.
Go 'gate!
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- agatefan, 10/11/15 8:58:54pm Sun
>Of course I am disappointed. So are the coaches and
>players and anyone with the best interests of the
>program at heart.
>
>My point is this: that there is no point in kicking a
>dead horse. It's dead already. The loss is a loss.
>So... like it or not, we are where we are. That's not
>defeatist; it's realistic.
>
>It's time to move on. Are you ready yet? The coaches,
>players and anyone with common sense can and will do
>so now since there is no other choice- apart, of
>course, from depressing others and wasting time. The
>coaches and players have to prepare for the rest of
>the season, something that the moaners on this thread
>seem all too ready and able to forget.
>
>And so you can claim that 80% of Ivy games should be
>wins.
>Not sure how you can expect or claim that without any
>context. But that's your choice.
>
>Go 'gate!
1. you contradict yourself
2. are you a coach? if not, how do you speak for them and the players?
3. if you don't review past performance and point out mistakes and faults you do NOT get better
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Ivy win % -- 'gate80, 10/12/15 8:30:53am Mon
>And so you can claim that 80% of Ivy games should be
>wins.
>Not sure how you can expect or claim that without any
>context. But that's your choice.
Here's some historical context. Biddle in 18 years won 80% of games against Ivy opponents. Dunlap in 12 years won 74% of games against Ivy teams (and half of those years Ivy teams were Div I/IA and much stronger than today).
Of course there are some very good Ivy teams some years, and expectations against these teams must be adjusted, but winning 50% of Ivy games in the scholarship era would be disappointing. Agree it's time to move on and beat Georgetown.
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The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/11/15 10:59:46pm Sun
This New York Times Article about the Ivies having effectively gone scholarship in sports is from 2011. That puts them years ahead of the Patriot League in terms of giving scholarships to football players.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/sports/financial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivies-rise.html?referer=&_r=0
Harvard is 25-1 over the past three seasons.
Yale beat Army last year.
No one has come within 21 points of an undefeated Dartmouth.
Princeton is also undefeated and will most likely finish third or fourth in the league. They beat Lafayette and Lehigh by a combined score of 92-33.
Ivy league football is the best its been in decades and will continue to improve. it is scholarship football with more scholarships than any schools other than the service academies.
Colgate has 45 scholarship players. None of them are seniors. Two of the best seniors in a thin senior class are out with injuries. Kids get better and stronger they are the older they are and the longer they play.
The Ivies got a jump on scholarships. Fordham got a jump on scholarships. The NEC has had scholarships for years. The CAA has had scholarships for decades. Colgate has had scholarships for 2.5 years and is playing catch up. I don't think there would be the level of frustration if all of the FCS games Colgate has played hadn't been winnable--which means the current team can win.
Colgate has a strong tradition of starting slowly and finishing with championships. That can happen here. These aren't guys getting beaten up or too slow to play with other teams. The QB is really coming into his own. There are very good receivers and a huge TE who presents a big problem anytime he is thrown the ball while moving forward. The defense doesn't give up huge plays. The pieces are there to win a lot of games. They just have to do it.
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Re: The Ivy League -- Steve, 10/12/15 6:47:09am Mon
>This New York Times Article about the Ivies having
>effectively gone scholarship in sports is from 2011.
>That puts them years ahead of the Patriot League in
>terms of giving scholarships to football players.
>
>
>href="http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/sports/finan
>cial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivies-rise.htm
>l?referer=&_r=0">http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/s
>ports/financial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivi
>es-rise.html?referer=&_r=0
>
>Harvard is 25-1 over the past three seasons.
>
>Yale beat Army last year.
>
>No one has come within 21 points of an undefeated
>Dartmouth.
>
>Princeton is also undefeated and will most likely
>finish third or fourth in the league. They beat
>Lafayette and Lehigh by a combined score of 92-33.
>
>Ivy league football is the best its been in decades
>and will continue to improve. it is scholarship
>football with more scholarships than any schools other
>than the service academies.
>
>Colgate has 45 scholarship players. None of them are
>seniors. Two of the best seniors in a thin senior
>class are out with injuries. Kids get better and
>stronger they are the older they are and the longer
>they play.
>
>The Ivies got a jump on scholarships. Fordham got a
>jump on scholarships. The NEC has had scholarships for
>years. The CAA has had scholarships for decades.
>Colgate has had scholarships for 2.5 years and is
>playing catch up. I don't think there would be the
>level of frustration if all of the FCS games Colgate
>has played hadn't been winnable--which means the
>current team can win.
>
>Colgate has a strong tradition of starting slowly and
>finishing with championships. That can happen here.
>These aren't guys getting beaten up or too slow to
>play with other teams. The QB is really coming into
>his own. There are very good receivers and a huge TE
>who presents a big problem anytime he is thrown the
>ball while moving forward. The defense doesn't give up
>huge plays. The pieces are there to win a lot of
>games. They just have to do it.
Thank you, The Future, for some context. It's the context
that moves discussions about the past and the future forward. With it I wonder where certain people get the idea
that they assert of "Colgate should win 80%" of Ivy games.
Maybe they don't know what they believe but just want to believe it? Strange that.
No, I am not a coach or player but I am pretty confident I have shown my true colors by remaining consistent with my support of the team. I don't contradict myself and I am happy to slough off suggestions made to the contrary which, incidentally, haven't been corroborated with that context bug bear.
I like the idea expressed above "Colgate has a strong tradition of starting slowly and finishing with championships. That can happen here." I agree and would hasten to add that having taken down HC we have a full sleight of PL games to fight for.
If you have ever managed a bunch of people in an enterprise you know that remaining positive and resourceful are core requirements for success. It applies to an athletics program as well. I mean, who wants to work for or with a moaner?
Go 'gate!
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Re: The Ivy League -- agatefan, 10/12/15 7:56:38am Mon
>If you have ever managed a bunch of people in an
>enterprise you know that remaining positive and
>resourceful are core requirements for success. It
>applies to an athletics program as well. I mean, who
>wants to work for or with a moaner?
>
>Go 'gate!
sorry! I did not realize that you were managing the team!!! good luck!
and 4 - 2 in the PL = a 5 & 6 record ANOTHER losing season
I nor I doubt anyone else posting is hoping for that result or worse but instead a winning record and a PL tiltle....so far not looking very promosing....hope they win out but.....
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Re: The Ivy League -- Steve, 10/12/15 8:33:49am Mon
>>If you have ever managed a bunch of people in an
>>enterprise you know that remaining positive and
>>resourceful are core requirements for success. It
>>applies to an athletics program as well. I mean, who
>>wants to work for or with a moaner?
>>
>>Go 'gate!
>
>sorry! I did not realize that you were managing the
>team!!! good luck!
>and 4 - 2 in the PL = a 5 & 6 record ANOTHER losing
>season
>I nor I doubt anyone else posting is hoping for that
>result or worse but instead a winning record and a PL
>tiltle....so far not looking very promosing....hope
>they win out but.....
You remain somewhat confused about who manages the football team. It's the coaching staff, not me. I was only talking about team building, management skills, and the attitude that leaders use to drive and sustain successful teams.
Never mind. Maybe you should unclutter your agenda and focus on what's really important to you.
Go 'gate!
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Re: The Ivy League -- agatefan, 10/12/15 8:51:30am Mon
>
>You remain somewhat confused about who manages the
>football team. It's the coaching staff, not me. I was
>only talking about team building, management skills,
>and the attitude that leaders use to drive and sustain
>successful teams.
>
>Never mind. Maybe you should unclutter your agenda and
>focus on what's really important to you.
>
>Go 'gate!
actually I'm rather clear on this: since neither you or I manage the team your point is pointless
but, thanks for the advice
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Re: The Ivy League -- gatefan, 10/12/15 9:11:36am Mon
Game Stats
COLGATE
PRIN
First Downs
21 35
Total Offensive Yards
Gate Tigers
436 556
Passing Yards
318 311
Rushing Yards
118 245
Princeton had their top 2 RB's out
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Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 11:35:35am Mon
The Ivies cannot exceed the financial aid limits for each sport. So, for example, all the aid they give football players, whether it's called need based or merit, cannot exceed the equivalent of 63 full scholarships. Now at the FCS level aid can be spread among more than 63 players (but no more than 85 "counters"), but the total amount can't exceed the 63 scholarship limit. So the Ivies can't have 100 football players receiving financial aid.
To say the Patriot League is behind the Ivy League in this somewhat stretches the point. Colgate was giving close to the NCAA maximum in aid to football players prior to scholarships. It was called need-based aid then. I've seen numbers that estimated football player aid at between 50 and 60 scholarship equivalents. Indeed, instituting merit aid for football was an easy transition financially for Colgate since the need-based aid went away and was replaced by merit aid almost dollar-for-dollar. In effect, the name of the aid was changed. It was a more difficult transition for other league members.
That scholarships haven't shown a noticeable improvement in athletic success, yet, is understandable given the above. As RichH notes elsewhere in this thread, Patriot League coaches probably haven't yet figured out how to use scholarships effectively to get players who are superior to those we had pre-scholarship.
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Re: The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/12/15 12:22:05pm Mon
Tunkmaster,
You are right and I am wrong. I got fired up about the idea of the Ivies circumventing scholarship rules by giving everyone scholarships. This is not my first time doing this and it's not your first time correcting me. I blame the defense.
Here is the current list of what each Ivy league school offers in terms of aid:
http://www.businessinsider.com/congrats-you-got-into-the-school-of-your-dreams-now-its-time-to-think-about-how-to-pay-for-it-2015-4
I continue to want to assume that having financial aid being universal for students of families making under $65,000, doesn't count towards athletic scholarships. I am still wrong.
The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but imagine the Ivies going to a "Suggested Donation" for tuition as the next step in the great "How We Can Win Sports Championships While Saying We Don't Offer Athletic Scholarships Ruse of the 21st Century."
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Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 12:54:57pm Mon
>The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but imagine
>the Ivies going to a "Suggested Donation" for tuition
>as the next step in the great "How We Can Win Sports
>Championships While Saying We Don't Offer Athletic
>Scholarships Ruse of the 21st Century."
Wouldn't surprise me at all if that happened.
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Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 12:47:59pm Mon
>The Ivies cannot exceed the financial aid limits for
>each sport. So, for example, all the aid they give
>football players, whether it's called need based or
>merit, cannot exceed the equivalent of 63 full
>scholarships. Now at the FCS level aid can be spread
>among more than 63 players (but no more than 85
>"counters"), but the total amount can't exceed the 63
>scholarship limit. So the Ivies can't have 100
>football players receiving financial aid.
>
>To say the Patriot League is behind the Ivy League in
>this somewhat stretches the point. Colgate was giving
>close to the NCAA maximum in aid to football players
>prior to scholarships. It was called need-based aid
>then. I've seen numbers that estimated football player
>aid at between 50 and 60 scholarship equivalents.
>Indeed, instituting merit aid for football was an easy
>transition financially for Colgate since the
>need-based aid went away and was replaced by merit aid
>almost dollar-for-dollar. In effect, the name of the
>aid was changed. It was a more difficult transition
>for other league members.
>
>That scholarships haven't shown a noticeable
>improvement in athletic success, yet, is
>understandable given the above. As RichH notes
>elsewhere in this thread, Patriot League coaches
>probably haven't yet figured out how to use
>scholarships effectively to get players who are
>superior to those we had pre-scholarship.
The Ivies are exempted per NCAA agreement from equivalency cap of 63. The only limit on recruiting is a 30 per year rolling average recruit classes. The exemption has remained in place under the rationale that ALL qualifying students get the exact same grants. It does not mean that all football recruits get full rides or even any aid at all. However,it is fair to conclude that HYP have more players receiving aid than any PL team. Whether this will change given the changes in Ivy aid to their students remains to be seen.
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Re: The Ivy League -- The Future, 10/12/15 1:14:08pm Mon
RichH to the rescue!!!
I knew it wasn't the defense!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The Ivy League -- Tunkmaster, 10/12/15 4:04:02pm Mon
Is that a special agreement with the Ivy League or is it just the application of an existing rule? The Ivy Agreement, which was between the Ivy schools, was revised about 10 years ago to reduce the number of recruited football players to 120 or a max of 30/year, among other revisions.
NCAA Rule 15.5.1.1
Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid
(as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.2) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted
until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports.
So, it seems to me that since all Ivy aid is non-athletic, Ivy teams can stick players on their JV teams and the aid won't count toward NCAA limits until the player actually gets to varsity and the team that lines up on the field on Saturday is still limited to 63 equivalencies. Correct?
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Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 1:30:24pm Mon
It should be noted that the same exemption afforded the Ivies also applies in the same way to the service academies.
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Re: The Ivy League -- Gate Raider, 10/12/15 1:10:33pm Mon
I believe Colgate has an advantage over the ivy league in the AI, although it might be slight. I suspect the AI at ivy schools are higher than that of Colgate. That translates to a larger pool of recruits for Colgate and the rest of the PL.
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Re: The Ivy League -- RichH, 10/12/15 1:20:30pm Mon
>I believe Colgate has an advantage over the ivy league
>in the AI, although it might be slight. I suspect the
>AI at ivy schools are higher than that of Colgate.
>That translates to a larger pool of recruits for
>Colgate and the rest of the PL.
AI computation not identical between PL ans IL. Generally speaking ,you are correct. I am aware of a few situations at Lehigh and 1 other PL where a recruit was not admitted and went onto an Ivy.
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Re: Biddle and the ivies -- RichH, 10/12/15 1:25:55pm Mon
>Correct me if I am wrong but, wasn't Biddle's record
>against the ivies something like 34-7, 82%. And, that
>was pretty much with no scholarships, while the ivies
>were able to give generous need aid.
He did indeed and most of that was prior to tha AI and the IL increasing their aid astronomically. Back then we could admit excellent players that Ivies couldn't touch and we cant either now.
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- Gate Raider, 10/12/15 8:59:25pm Mon
At TB next year 'gate will have Wilkins, a Sr. and Holland, a Jr. and Cervizzi, a So. I would expect that Hunt will be looking to add at least two more. The O and D lines are always a priority and I would expect another QB to be sought.
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- Kinney, 10/13/15 8:21:08am Tue
>There are thousands of very good football players with very good academic records.
Colgate does not want very good football players nor very good students. It wants *really* good student-athletes, and they are harder to come by than you'd first think. There are a few hundred football players each year who are recruited by D1 programs and have the academic credentials to attend Patriot League schools (leaving out Fordham - cough, cough). The best of those athletes are also being recruited by Michigan, Stanford, Rice, Baylor, etc. The best of those students are also being recruited by Harvard, Yale and Princeton. There are *very* few student-athletes who are "on the margin" - Good enough students and athletes to be at Colgate but not good enough to attend other schools they perceive as being better in football, academics, or both.
Recruiting at this level is a nightmare - We all think Colgate is special. It is. But to an outsider, it isn't perceived to be the *best* at anything. Very serious about academics? Ivys seen as better. Very serious about FCS football? How often does a patriot league team make it out of the first round?
Also, let's remember what scholarships do at Colgate - They cover what a family *could* pay but has decided not to pay. Thus we are in the territory of choices being made. Many families will pay some for an Ivy versus taking a free Colgate education. Again, we are working thin margins and taking risks with recruits.
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- gatefan, 10/13/15 8:30:08am Tue
There are a few hundred football
>players each year who are recruited by D1 programs and
>have the academic credentials to attend Patriot League
>schools
there are aprox 1.1 million hs players if we say 25% are seniors that leaves 275,000. from that there are only a few hundred available to recruit?????? where did you get that from??
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- Kinney, 10/13/15 11:12:24am Tue
>there are aprox 1.1 million hs players if we say 25%
>are seniors that leaves 275,000. from that there are
>only a few hundred available to recruit?????? where
>did you get that from??
There are 125 FCS programs. Figure 30 players each incoming each year. 30*125 = 3,750 football players a year going to FCS schools.
At best, and this is an exaggeration, 20% of those 3,750 are academically suited to most Patriot League schools, the Ivys, etc. That leaves 750 student-athletes land-able by FCS schools and academically qualified to attend Colgate.
Of course we don't just need a random 30 of these 750, as within any given year, we need certain positions and skill types. You might expect that of the 750 to choose from, there is not an even distribution by position / skill type.
And, of course, these guys can go to many other FCS schools, and UNH isn't going to turn down a great player just because they are smart enough to go to Colgate.
It really is hundreds of players we are discussing.
You can, all you want, argue Colgate should change its admission criteria to run a more competitive FCS football program. But until we do, the conjunction of great student as measured by the AI and great FCS football athlete limits one to a small subset of men.
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- gatefan, 10/13/15 2:41:08pm Tue
>>there are aprox 1.1 million hs players if we say 25%
>>are seniors that leaves 275,000. from that there are
>>only a few hundred available to recruit?????? where
>>did you get that from??
>
>There are 125 FCS programs. Figure 30 players each
>incoming each year. 30*125 = 3,750 football players a
>year going to FCS schools.
>
>At best, and this is an exaggeration, 20% of those
>3,750 are academically suited to most Patriot League
>schools, the Ivys, etc. That leaves 750
>student-athletes land-able by FCS schools and
>academically qualified to attend Colgate.
>
>Of course we don't just need a random 30 of these 750,
>as within any given year, we need certain positions
>and skill types. You might expect that of the 750 to
>choose from, there is not an even distribution by
>position / skill type.
>
>And, of course, these guys can go to many other FCS
>schools, and UNH isn't going to turn down a great
>player just because they are smart enough to go to
>Colgate.
>
>It really is hundreds of players we are discussing.
>
>You can, all you want, argue Colgate should change its
>admission criteria to run a more competitive FCS
>football program. But until we do, the conjunction of
>great student as measured by the AI and great FCS
>football athlete limits one to a small subset of men.
so that math works 750 is "a lot more" than a few hundred though! and I would not advocate for lowering the AI !!
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- RichH, 10/13/15 9:35:17am Tue
>>There are thousands of very good football players
>with very good academic records.
>
>Colgate does not want very good football players nor
>very good students. It wants *really* good
>student-athletes, and they are harder to come by than
>you'd first think. There are a few hundred football
>players each year who are recruited by D1 programs and
>have the academic credentials to attend Patriot League
>schools (leaving out Fordham - cough, cough). The
>best of those athletes are also being recruited by
>Michigan, Stanford, Rice, Baylor, etc. The best of
>those students are also being recruited by Harvard,
>Yale and Princeton. There are *very* few
>student-athletes who are "on the margin" - Good enough
>students and athletes to be at Colgate but not good
>enough to attend other schools they perceive as being
>better in football, academics, or both.
>
>Recruiting at this level is a nightmare - We all think
>Colgate is special. It is. But to an outsider, it
>isn't perceived to be the *best* at anything. Very
>serious about academics? Ivys seen as better. Very
>serious about FCS football? How often does a patriot
>league team make it out of the first round?
>
>Also, let's remember what scholarships do at Colgate -
>They cover what a family *could* pay but has decided
>not to pay. Thus we are in the territory of choices
>being made. Many families will pay some for an Ivy
>versus taking a free Colgate education. Again, we are
>working thin margins and taking risks with recruits.
Your numbers are approx right on an avg year. About just under 3% of seniors play college ball.The NE alone has about 3000 HS teams. That our pool is small compared to CAA et al,it is still quite large even with the AI. Most staffs use NCAA authorized recruiting services to winnow thru the numbers around the country. Coaches may start out with a list of 3-4000 names.
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Re: Football Coaching Complaints -- Consultant, 10/13/15 3:38:59pm Tue
>>>There are thousands of very good football players
>>with very good academic records.
>>
>>Colgate does not want very good football players nor
>>very good students. It wants *really* good
>>student-athletes, and they are harder to come by than
>>you'd first think. There are a few hundred football
>>players each year who are recruited by D1 programs and
>>have the academic credentials to attend Patriot League
>>schools (leaving out Fordham - cough, cough). The
>>best of those athletes are also being recruited by
>>Michigan, Stanford, Rice, Baylor, etc. The best of
>>those students are also being recruited by Harvard,
>>Yale and Princeton. There are *very* few
>>student-athletes who are "on the margin" - Good enough
>>students and athletes to be at Colgate but not good
>>enough to attend other schools they perceive as being
>>better in football, academics, or both.
>>
>>Recruiting at this level is a nightmare - We all think
>>Colgate is special. It is. But to an outsider, it
>>isn't perceived to be the *best* at anything. Very
>>serious about academics? Ivys seen as better. Very
>>serious about FCS football? How often does a patriot
>>league team make it out of the first round?
>>
>>Also, let's remember what scholarships do at Colgate -
>>They cover what a family *could* pay but has decided
>>not to pay. Thus we are in the territory of choices
>>being made. Many families will pay some for an Ivy
>>versus taking a free Colgate education. Again, we are
>>working thin margins and taking risks with recruits.
>Your numbers are approx right on an avg year. About
>just under 3% of seniors play college ball.The NE
>alone has about 3000 HS teams. That our pool is small
>compared to CAA et al,it is still quite large even
>with the AI. Most staffs use NCAA authorized
>recruiting services to winnow thru the numbers around
>the country. Coaches may start out with a list of
>3-4000 names.
Everyone should hope for the best/most successful outcome. If the program doesn't improve, then there should be consequences (e.g. staff changes.) A plan should be put in place (1/3/5yr) in order to track and see what type of improvements have or have not occurred.
You would think the necessary people are doing their due diligence in evaluating the necessary components of the program (seeing football carries such weight at Colgate.)
If they necessary people don't do the appropriate steps in evaluating, they should be held accountable as well.
No need to make things complicated. Either get better or you don't.
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Explain Field Hockey -- Gate Raider, 10/13/15 6:26:24pm Tue
Agree consultant. The football program costs several million every year. However, Colgate is slow to act when it comes to personnel changes in the athletic department. The field hockey situation defies explanation.
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Re: Explain Field Hockey -- Consultant, 10/13/15 7:11:36pm Tue
>Agree consultant. The football program costs several
>million every year. However, Colgate is slow to act
>when it comes to personnel changes in the athletic
>department. The field hockey situation defies
>explanation.
You are exactly right about field hockey. You have to set aside personal relationships and do what is best for the program. If I am a high level student athlete, I want a great education and to compete at a high level, with a chance at winning, that is the whole point. Again very simple.
Football does cost millions of dollars to run, difficulty is not bringing in one ounce of revenue, other than guarantees for getting their butt kicked. There is enough influence at higher administrative levels I imagine that will not let this become a field hockey problem.
But who knows!!! Still wish success for everyone.
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Re: Explain Field Hockey -- analyzer, 10/13/15 7:17:23pm Tue
Get a new offensive coordinator or we won't be able to keep recruiting excellent kids that can throw and catch. Read option quarterbacks with an AI will continue to come to Colgate which means that we will continue to run and continue to be able to be stopped by 7 in the box, just like big short yardage plays this year. Need a new OC and if that does not work, then a new coach. Recruiting should include Texas and Ohio more because we already do a good job in Florida and the northeast and Illinois.
Go 'gate!
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Re: Explain Field Hockey -- Maven, 10/13/15 7:56:22pm Tue
>Agree consultant. The football program costs several
>million every year. However, Colgate is slow to act
>when it comes to personnel changes in the athletic
>department. The field hockey situation defies
>explanation.
Field Hockey must be a seniority issue. I get no clear answers.
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