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Date Posted: 11:10:02 10/12/99 Tue
Author: Alex
Subject: Re: Southern Baptist Anti-Catholic!
In reply to: Gabriel 's message, "Southern Baptist Anti-Catholic!" on 15:49:05 10/11/99 Mon


> I don't know how many Protestants agree with what is
> written above, but as a Catholic, I think it is two
> things: A ridicuolously unfounded post, and a blatent
> charge against Catholics (anti-Catholicism). So, Mr.
> Pazos, let's see if your "best denomination" can
> justify the following challenges:

I too did not like this "best church" remark, and the other remark about Catholic church, which was undoubtely directed to you. Not nice. :(

> 1) Southern Baptists claim that the Bible is the sole
> and final authority for the Christian. Where in the
> Bible does it say that the Bible is the SOLE
> authrority for the Christian?

Where does it give authority to other sources?

> 2) Southern Baptists claim that salvation is by faith
> alone. James 2:24 explicitly condemns this view: "We
> are justified by works, and not by faith alone"

I've followed these verses and James 2:14-26 is talking just about that. Thanks for pointing to James 2.

True faith always results in deeds, but the deeds to not justify us.
Only faith brings salvation. Active obedience (works) demonstrate that our faith is genuine.

If a person claims to have faith and isn't doing anything to demonstrate that, this person isn't a obedient believer, but a pretender. JC instructed us to treat anyone just like if this person would be JC himself. That's quite some task, but it shows the way we should go. The popular term (and "merchandise?" article) "WWJD" is very right.

However, deeds without faith are just man's attempt to wash off sin and get right with God, and this is doomed to fail.

>In fact, give me a single
> verse where the phrase "only faith" or "faith alone"
> or anything of the sort can be found.

Faith saves.
Faith produces deeds.

JC demanded faith to heal people and for salvation. And nothing more.

Mark 5:34 NIV
"He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

Mark 10:51-52 NIV
The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see".
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immerdiately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

A beautiful example how faith produces obedience. JC did not demand from the man to follow him for a while, then he'll heal him. Nor did he say "I heal you, and you'll follow me". The blind man had faith in Jesus. This was enough. After the healing it was his own choice to follow JC.

> 3) You claim that the Bible is the only authority, and
> so you reject the Church (including the successor of
> Peter-- the pope) and Tradition as true authorities.
> How do you reconcile this preposterous belief with 1
> Timothy 3:15,
>Matthew 16:17-20
>John 21:15-17,
>Epehsians 5:27,
>2 Thess 2:15, and 2 Timothy 2:2?

I don't get your point, Gabriel. Some of these verses are talking about churches. Some are talking about Peter. I see no way how to relate that to Catholic church (only).

> And yet
> you, as a Southern Baptist, still choose to read the
> New Testament that the CATHOLIC CHURCH compiled? Why?
> How do you know that your New Testament is infallible?

I'm getting worried about you. ;-( The entire scripture is God breathed. Why do you think, God lets the final thing (compiling it) to the hand of man only? Why do you think God stopped working on it, as it came to compiling? Why do you give honor and glory to CATHOLIC CHURCH for compiling, rather than to God who moved people to put all scriptures into one book, so it's much easier to read/share the truth?

Little do I know of Catholic church, and nothing of Catholic church of 382. Maybe they have been already well organized back then and had the ressources to collect/compile all scriptures, and God used this ressources. Maybe Catholic church of 382 interpreted it different. It was almost 1600 years ago. Keep this in mind.

> 5) The Southern Baptist church holds that the Church
> which Christ established was merely a body of
> believers and that every single Christian is within
> the Church. And yet this so-called "Church" is split
> into 26,000 denominations (literally!).

Give credits to Satan for this. The false prophet is doing mighty work.

> And yet the
> Bible has blatently pointed out that the Church is
> completely unified: John 17:20-23, Acts 2:44, 1
> Corinthians 12:25-26, and Romans 12:4-5, along with
> every verse which refers to a singular Church.

The perfect church would be an unified one. True. But it does not exist. A perfect church is an empty one. As soon as somebody enters it, it stopped being perfect. Man is not perfect. Never. Anything we do is not perfect. And so you shouldn't be surprised the perfect (unified) church does not exist. Nowhere.

> 7) Southern Baptists don't anoint the sick with oil.
> How do you justify this with James 5:14: "Is anyone
> among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the
> church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with
> oil in the name of the Lord."?

Here I'm with you. :)

> 8) Southern Baptists replace Confirmation (the laying
> of hands) with Baptism, and completely get rid of
> Confirmation!. How do you justify this with Hebrews
> 6:2, Acts 19:5-6, and especially Acts 8:14-17?

You're right, and I've learned again something new. Baptizing is repenting of sin and a step towards Jesus. A baptized person with no understanding why he did so, is an "uncomplete" Christian. Expressing/Showing Faith in Jesus makes it complete, fills the person with the promise Jesus gave us: The Holy Spirit, which comes with the gift of speaking in tongues and (for some) prophecy.

Acts should describe this "filling of the Holy Spirit" in different ways. Laying hands is just one, but not the only one.

> 9) Southern Baptists condemn infant Baptism. How do
> you justify this with Acts 2:38-39, Acts 16:15, Acts
> 16:33, Acts 18:18, 1 Corithians 1:16, John 3:5, Romans
> 6:4 (cf. Psalm 51:5), and Colossians 2:11-12?

Thanks for sharing these verses. Again, learned something. In Paul's days baptizim wasn't a bit of water over the head (as it is custody in Austrian catholic/protestant churches), but a full dive in the water. BURIED in water. As a symbol to be in the grave with JC. As you get out of the water again, you are "raised from death" aka re-born. Just like JC.

Nowhere in these verses can I read about children or infants. Honestly: Does it make sense to baptize children? In 8.) we learned that baptizm only is not good enough. How can a baby/child express faith? How can a baby/child get the understand of this important decision?

Anyway, I wouldn't condem baptizing in infant age. Each to it's own. I think, it doesn't mean anything.

> 10) Southern Baptists readily pray for eachother and
> ask others to pray for them, but they refuse to ask
> the saints in Heaven, who sit with God, to pray for
> them. We are one Body. You cannot exclude the alive in
> Heaven from the Body of Christ. In the same way you
> ask fellow Christians on Earth to pray for you, why
> not ask the (perfectly alive) saints in Heaven, who
> are undoubtedly saved, to pray for you?

I just read all verses my concordance brings up about Saints (not much), and it completely confused me as it is differs from everything I ever thought of. I've to get more info before I say anything about saints again.


I hope my post did not upset you, or attack your believes, Gabriel. This was and is not in my intention. I just want to talk, ask and learn.

:-)
Cheers
Alex

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