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Date Posted: 19:59:24 10/12/99 Tue
Author: Gabriel
Subject: Re: Southern Baptist Anti-Catholic!
In reply to: Alex 's message, "Re: Southern Baptist Anti-Catholic!" on 11:10:02 10/12/99 Tue


> > 1) Southern Baptists claim that the Bible is the sole
> > and final authority for the Christian. Where in the
> > Bible does it say that the Bible is the SOLE
> > authrority for the Christian?
>
> Where does it give authority to other sources?

As I noted below, it gives authority to Tradition and the Church. Since very, very little was written in the Bible (cf. John 21:25), the unwritten Traditions of the apostles and their successors lived on. Hence, early Church Fathers like Clement of Rome, Iraneus, Origen, Tertullian, the Didache, etc. are all, according to the Bible, authorities. The Church is given explicit authority as well. Because it it the pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15), we are to look to it as an authority in doctrine as well. In reality, the New Testament gives much more authority to Tradition and the Church than it does to itself.

> > 2) Southern Baptists claim that salvation is by faith
> > alone. James 2:24 explicitly condemns this view: "We
> > are justified by works, and not by faith alone"
>
> I've followed these verses and James 2:14-26 is
> talking just about that. Thanks for pointing to James
> 2.
>
> True faith always results in deeds,

Indeed... unless of course, this faith is dead (James 2:26) or shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19).

> but the deeds to
> not justify us.

Sorry, but I prefer to listen to God: "We are justified by works..." (James 2:24). I'm going to have to side with Christ on this one (Matthew 25:31-46).

> >In fact, give me a single
> > verse where the phrase "only faith" or "faith alone"
> > or anything of the sort can be found.
>
> Faith saves.
> Faith produces deeds.

But where does the Bible claim that faith alone saves? Anywhere? Just one spot, that's all I'm asking for.

> JC demanded faith to heal people and for salvation.
> And nothing more.

He demanded faith alone for salvation? WHEN DID HE DEMAND THAT? One reference-- just one is all I want!!

> Mark 5:34 NIV
> "He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you.
> Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

I never said that faith won't heal people...

> Mark 10:51-52 NIV
> The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see".
> "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you."
> Immerdiately he received his sight and followed Jesus
> along the road.

I never said that faith won't heal people...

> A beautiful example how faith produces obedience. JC
> did not demand from the man to follow him for a while,
> then he'll heal him. Nor did he say "I heal you, and
> you'll follow me". The blind man had faith in Jesus.
> This was enough. After the healing it was his own
> choice to follow JC.

What was the first requirement of Christ for salvation? NOT FAITH, but that we should love and obey His commands (Mark 10:17-22).

> > 3) You claim that the Bible is the only authority,
> and
> > so you reject the Church (including the successor of
> > Peter-- the pope) and Tradition as true authorities.
> > How do you reconcile this preposterous belief with 1
> > Timothy 3:15,
> >Matthew 16:17-20
> >John 21:15-17,
> >Epehsians 5:27,
> >2 Thess 2:15, and 2 Timothy 2:2?
>
> I don't get your point, Gabriel. Some of these verses
> are talking about churches. Some are talking about
> Peter. I see no way how to relate that to Catholic
> church (only).

None of these verses were talking about churches. None. Some were talking about the Church, and others were talking about the power of Peter. As the genuine successor of Peter, the pope of the Catholic Church has His authority. That's why Peter chose Linus to succeed him, then came Cletus, and so on, down to Pope John Paul II. Now, pope John Paul holds the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, as well as the power to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19). You can look at any list of popes. Every single list will tell you that John Paul II is a direct successor of Peter. Christ's sheep included every single Christian (John 10:11-16). And so, when He handed all of His sheep to Peter, and made Peter the shepherd over all of the flock-- every single Christian-- Peter receives authority over you and I-- over all living Christians (John 21:15-17). Where God is the Rock, so too Peter was given the title of Rock (John 1:42, Matthew 16:18), a title given to nobody except Peter and God. And where God is the Good Shepherd, so too Peter was given authroity over the sheep, an authority granted to nobody but Peter (John 21:15-17). As a result, Peter's successor, John Paul II, has authority over all Christians as well.

> > And yet
> > you, as a Southern Baptist, still choose to read the
> > New Testament that the CATHOLIC CHURCH compiled? Why?
> > How do you know that your New Testament is
> infallible?
>
> I'm getting worried about you. ;-( The entire
> scripture is God breathed. Why do you think, God lets
> the final thing (compiling it) to the hand of man
> only? Why do you think God stopped working on it, as
> it came to compiling? Why do you give honor and glory
> to CATHOLIC CHURCH for compiling, rather than to God
> who moved people to put all scriptures into one book,
> so it's much easier to read/share the truth?

Maybe you're missing something... The Bible is the infallible, inspired Word of God. There was no Bible until the Catholic Church compiled it. Since the Bible is infallible, God must have worked through who? Through the Catholic Church. God made an infallible decision through who? Through the Catholic Church. Hence, at least once in history, the Church MUST have been infallible. Every time you read your New Testament, you, Alex, are reinforcing that infallibility-- that God-Given infallibility, that blessed communicator of Truth. And so I answer that on the contrary, it is not I who fails to give to glory to God for His Work...


> > 5) The Southern Baptist church holds that the Church
> > which Christ established was merely a body of
> > believers and that every single Christian is within
> > the Church. And yet this so-called "Church" is split
> > into 26,000 denominations (literally!).
>
> Give credits to Satan for this. The false prophet is
> doing mighty work.

We can't blame everything on Satan, Alex. You should be informed that men sin as well. Granted, Satan often tempts us, we can't possibly hope to sit before God on Judgement Day and say that "Satan made me do it!" whenever God mentions one of our sins.

> > And yet the
> > Bible has blatently pointed out that the Church is
> > completely unified: John 17:20-23, Acts 2:44, 1
> > Corinthians 12:25-26, and Romans 12:4-5, along with
> > every verse which refers to a singular Church.
>
> The perfect church would be an unified one. True. But
> it does not exist. A perfect church is an empty one.
> As soon as somebody enters it, it stopped being
> perfect. Man is not perfect. Never. Anything we do is
> not perfect. And so you shouldn't be surprised the
> perfect (unified) church does not exist. Nowhere.

"The Gates of Hades shall NEVER prevail agiant it." (Matthew 16:19). The Church is still in existence-- that same pillar and foundation of Truth-- and that Church, Christ's Church, which He makes Holy and unblemished, will continue to stand until the end of time. Hades has never, and will never, prevail against it. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Built upon Christ (1 Cor 3:11), built upon Peter (Mat 16:18), and built upon the apostles (Eph 2:20). With these it is indestructlble, with these it abides.


> Thanks for sharing these verses. Again, learned
> something. In Paul's days baptizim wasn't a bit of
> water over the head (as it is custody in Austrian
> catholic/protestant churches), but a full dive in the
> water. BURIED in water. As a symbol to be in the grave
> with JC. As you get out of the water again, you are
> "raised from death" aka re-born. Just like JC.

We don't know for sure that Paul dunked people completely into rivers or other sources of water for Baptism. The Bible doesn't tell us. The Greek word for Baptism used in the New Testament CAN mean dunked or emmersed, but it can also mean sprayed or splashed.

> Nowhere in these verses can I read about children or
> infants. Honestly: Does it make sense to baptize
> children? In 8.) we learned that baptizm only is not
> good enough. How can a baby/child express faith? How
> can a baby/child get the understand of this important
> decision?

Look again. I gave you verses that referred to "whole families" being baptized. This doesn't just include a spouse-- it includes children as well. I also gave you a verse that said that Baptism replaced Circumcision. Since Circumcision was done to young infants, it would make sense, of course, to baptize young infants.

The "important decision" is supposed to be made at Confirmation.

Peace and prayer,
Gabriel

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