Hehehe. New message head! -- Down, yet never out, in the Horse Latitudes

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Date Posted: 03:52:50 02/05/00 Sat
Author: �Matt�
Subject: Hehehe. New message head!
In reply to: saint stephen 's message, "Ok, but I think we should include some thoughts on truth, just so it does not get cynical either...so lets offer some truths and not truths, just parts, and work upon what we agree on, so we can confront disagreement more civily latter." on 19:55:31 02/04/00 Fri

> This is why I wanted you to come back, speech on the
> meat as speechy says. The truth knows no limits, it
> is not bound by anything, it is formless and
> intangible, the only limit it knows is self. Reality
> is not the truth, it is a desinger version of truth I
> feel. I think that knowing ones true self is a big
> key to tapping into the limitless possibilities, but
> not the only key. If we where indeed put here for a
> reason, and I am assuming that is beyond some higher
> form of intelligence's amussment, a big part of it
> must be to learn from our human experince. We must
> know ourselves, but know matter how far we dig we have
> been shaped by this experince. The world, this
> reality that the control freaks have desinged for us,
> is not the truth but it is here for a reason, all this
> technological progress and what not, it could be of
> imense positive value if it is put to use properly, we
> could have heaven on earth. That sounds like I am
> suplimenting my earthly desires right? I don't thinks
> so, it's like I said, why stand in the cold if we can
> enjoy the warmth of the hearth in the house.
> Certainly we may be able to be stohic and endure the
> cold, but why is that necassary. The average persons
> addiction to the modern life style is not the truth,
> it is an opiate...however, what if we could enlighten
> ourselves to the point of using these things with out
> being addicted to them eh? From there human
> experince, everyone see's things in a similar but much
> differnt manner, the closer they get to self, if they
> so persue, I think the views become more similar but
> still remain different. That is because truth is
> boundless, we are both right and wrong. Self truth is
> the truth, and it is not, for the truth is an infinte
> set of possibilities. The truth is one, but it is
> not...the truth is many, but it is not, the truth is
> the collective of many ones...if you get my drift.
> The current truth is that you are beaten into line
> from day one and from all directions, but that is just
> the current truth...the truth is if you can get a grip
> on yourself and see through all the illusions there is
> a diffrent truth...the truth is more then one person
> must work together to make it into a greater
> truth...the truth is we will have to comprimise bits
> and peaces of our personal truths to build a bridge to
> where all truths can be true...and existance where we
> work together with absolute freedom to persue our own
> truths, where no one is in control(a state of
> anarchy), yet everyone has there own messure of
> responsibity not to infinge upon the truth of another.
> The truth is in each and everyone of us, but to make
> it true we must not only find it through reflection,
> we must reflect by becoming the mirrors. The current
> mirror is the desinger truth, this reality, it
> reflects what most people see, they even get there
> reflection of self from it. Reason forces us to
> reflect, it is an endowment of creation, but it has
> been played upon by the power brokers of society...for
> an individual cannot be controlled easily...so they
> put up this mirror of society which reflects exactly
> what they want us to see, including a sense of
> self...this false sense of self is a limit, a chain
> the bounds us, the wheel that breaks us, it is not the
> truth...but unfortunatley so many people give it power
> that it is the truth, if you understand the
> contradiction. I feel I have truelly shttered that
> mirror and that I am starting to build a true sense of
> self, I understand more of there lies everyday, and
> everything gets so much clearer to me. I will start
> with that, what do you think? of course there is
> more, but lest take this in stages....and ugh, change
> the message heading in your reply:)
>
> -saint stephen
>
> p.s. the truth is not cutting yourself of from the
> world, it is proven that social interaction is not
> only healthy, but a lack of it leads to mental
> deterioration:)~

For the most part I agree. However, you said that we must work together to create a bridge of truth where all of our personal truths merge together to form a whole, if I understand you correctly. I don't understand what you mean by "truth" then. The description is exactly what I think, but the means of getting there doesn't seem truthful to me.
Can you go a bit deeper and tell me what you mean by finding our own truth to mere (or whatever word you may use)in with other's truths?

I would like to talk about the self; the false self. To me, the true self (which most of us do not realize as ourself just yet) is a mirror, a flawless mirror that reflects the world around us. The false self, which to me, is everything that has to do with the "me" the "I" the "mine" - which is the very false self itself - is what tries to grab ahold of the reflections. The mind is there and must be there, but to me, mind sees the reflection in the mirror (the true self, the pure, whole consciousness) and tries to grab ahold of it. Mind sees the reflection and it attaches itself to these reflections and says "this is mine" and because mind has only attached itself to a reflection and not the actual, conflict must arise from it.

I think we agree on what the absolute truth is regarding it's attributes. We both agree that it cannot be described, because it's not a thing. Even giving it the word "love" is still false, because "love" is different for everyone; thus everyone's perception will be different. Truth will be there despite our perception of it.

And I didn't mean to say that truth was renoucing the world and choosing bad situation for the better. I think that the "bad" situations in life is just "bad" because our false selves are clinging onto the reflection of that which is "good".

We agree that there is a false sense of self, right? So, how do we go about dropping this false self and attainging the true self, which is truth? The true self which is whole? To be a self means to be separate from existance, right? Just the word "self" and being a "self" means to be separate from others, separate from life. To drop the self, making one selfless, means that their consciousness must either flicker out or become the whole consciousness..... where the division of Saint Stephen and Matt doesn't exist; where our true consciuosness is the same. To me, our consciuosness' are all different right now, because our minds are acting like a filter to it. It clings onto certain aspects of the reflections and refuses most others. This very clinging, the very attaching of any reflection is what the "I" is. To me, if we drop the false self by realizing it to be false, then mind will stop attaching itself to the reflections and we will become aware IN the true consciousness which is just a mirror reflecting the world. Does this fit in with what you say? That is we drop the attachements, the clinging to reflections, we can remain a mirror just reflecting.

Here's an example: The mind is like a video camera with an infinite tape in it. It records everything it sees and stores it away. The video camera keeps on recording and storing, recording and storing. While the true consciousness is like a mirror: It simply reflects everything and never creates a tape of it, an attachement of it. Not that there will be no memory, that is impossible. It only means that the identification is gone. How can a mirror identify itself with a person looking into it? The person looks into it and the mirror reflects it. When the person walks away, the mirror no longer reflects it and remains totally as it was before the reflection came. That's just an analogy.

Also, you said "I am starting to build a true sense of self." This is ambiguous to me. I sounds like you're saying that from your experiences that really shattered your ego, you are resculpting it into a better one. I'm not sure if this is the case. Are you creating a new ego?

To me, when one's ego is so badly shattered as your was yours (as was mine), one begins to see the fallacies of why such a shattering of the ego even occured. Much of my ego shattered last year. I know I am still an ego, because I still think myelf to me "me", "i", and still say "that is MINE". But much of my ego was shattered, shaken by a huge earthquake. This happened because I was clinging onto an ideal that should have happened. I wanted the ideal to happen and last forever (it had to do with love) and I actually thought I was almost there. On one day, August 23rd 1999, three incidents happened that completely rocked the very foundation of my ego. I realized that the ideal was never going to happen. For 3 months I lived in total confusion, depression, not knowing who I was or where I was going. I was deeply lonely. My ego was deeply shaken! I couldn't put the pieces back together no matter how hard I tried. I just couldn't put that part of my ego back together. For almost 3 months I was blindly trying to put it back together. Then in Noember 1999, something clicked. I remember I was walking away from my computer and I realized that the attachement was gone! IN that split second, it was gone. It was an amazing feeling! It felt as if I just said "Ah, it's brken, let it be!" and I just lost the attachement to it. I wasn't even thinking about it or doing anything.

The loneliness was gone. I still had and have an ego, so that feeling of not knowing the true self is still there. To me, even the slightest existance of the ego prevents one from being the divine consciousness; that one cannot build the true consciousness within them, they must simply and completely drop the false self and then what's left is the true self. So Im not real sure when you say that you are building up your true self, because to me, the true self is only when the false self is not. NOthing is to be built, everythign we are needs to be dropped. HOw can we be the ultimateconsciousness when we are still "me" "I" "mine"? This shows that we are not yet the divine, that we are still individuals trying to separate ourselves from everyone else. It sound like you're saying you want to keep yourself, but just create a bridge to truth. I could be wrong about that. To me, one must become lost in truth to the point where that person no longer exists - then only truth exists. If you exist in truth, then doesn't that mean you and truth are separate? If you create a bridge to truth, then doesn't that make you separate from truth?

How does one become truth, That flawless mirror that just reflects the world and doesn't attach oneself to the reflections (not the good or bad, ugly and pretty, nothing at all)?

And do you think we must loose ourselves in truth or do you think we must remain our separate selves and surround ourselves with truth, or maybe something else?

Matt

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Replies:

Building a progressive build to the Future; true and false self -- saint stephen, 08:37:47 02/05/00 Sat
- Re: Building a progressive build to the Future; true and false self -- Beast below, 09:18:24 02/12/02 Tue