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Date Posted: 19:23:29 12/04/02 Wed
Author: Òðåéòÿê
Subject: Re: Ïðî ºâðå¿â, ãåáðå¿â, þäå¿â, ³óäå¿â, æèä³â òà ò.ï.
In reply to: Vitaliy 's message, "Re: Ïðî ºâðå¿â, ãåáðå¿â, þäå¿â, ³óäå¿â, æèä³â òà ò.ï." on 07:29:43 12/01/02 Sun

-- 1. Êîëè ïîâ³äîìëåííÿ ðîçïîðîøóºòüñÿ (ðîçä³ëÿòüñÿ, ðîçðèâàºòüñÿ)òà ïî÷èíàþòüñÿ êîìåíòàð³ îêðåìèõ ðå÷åíü, ïàðàãðàô³â òà ÷àñòèíè, òî âòðà÷àºòüñÿ çàãàëüíà òåìàòèêà ðîçìîâè. Çàì³ñòü îïèñó (ïîâíîãî òà áàãàòîñòîðîííüîãî) âèíèêຠáàãàòî ð³çíîìàí³òíèõ òåì ìàëî ïîâ'ÿçàíèõ ì³æ ñîáîþ.

Ãàðàçä. ß ñïðîáóþ â³äîêðåìèòè ãîëîâí³ òî÷êè-òåçè â ö³é ðîçìîâ³ â³ä ðåøòè:

1. ×îìó â óêð. ìîâ³ òðåáà óæèâàòè "æèäè", à íå "ºâðå¿"

2. ×èì ïîíÿòòÿ "ãåáðåé/ºâðåé" ð³çíèòüñÿ â³ä ïîíÿòòÿ "þäåé/æèä" ³ ÷îìó íåäîö³ëüíî ¿õ ïëóòàòè.

3. ×îìó ïîíÿòòÿ "æèä" ÿê íàö³îíàëüí³ñòü ³ "þäåé" ÿê â³ðîâèçíàííÿ º ö³ëêîì òîòîæí³ â æèä³âñüêèõ ìîâàõ, ³ íåäîö³ëüíî ðîáèòè ì³æ íèìè ð³çíèö³.

Âëàñíå, íàâêîëî öèõ òî÷îê-òåç ³ â"ºòüñÿ öÿ äèñêóñ³ÿ, à ðåøòà òî ïåðåâàæíî àðãóìåíòè íà çàõèñò òî¿ ÷è ³íøî¿ òåçè. Ïðèíàéìí³, ç ìîãî áîêó.

Òåïåð ïîá³æíî ïî îêðåìèõ-òàêè ôðàçî÷êàõ, áî ç òîãî, ùî Âè ïèøåòå òóò, âèïëèâàº, ùî Âè ìåíå íåïðàâèëüíî ðîçó쳺òå, àæ äî ïðîòèëåæíîñò³:

-- òâåðäæåííÿ ïðî ºäèíó íàçâó ºâðå¿-æèäè-þäå¿ ìîãëî ñïîê³éíî ñïðèéìàòèñÿ 300-à ðîê³â òîìó

Òàê, "æèäè=þäå¿", ç ïîãëÿäó ñàìèõ æå æèä³â, áî ÿê óæå çàçàíà÷àëîñÿ â îáèäâîõ æèä³âñüêèõ ìîâàõ íåìຠòàêî¿ ð³çíèö³ ïîíÿòü.



³äñòóï ÷.1: ² öå íå ïðîñòî ìîâíà õèáà, çà öèì êðèºòüñÿ ùîñü çíà÷íî ãëèáøå, çàñàäíè÷å, áåç ÷îãî ãîä³ çðîçóì³òè æèä³â òà ¿õí³é íàö³îíàëüíèé ñâ³òîãëÿä é ñâ³òîñïðèéíÿòòÿ âçàãàë³.

Ïðàãíåííÿ ¿õ ðîçð³çíèòè çã³äíî "ç âèìîãàìè ÷àñó" º íåâ³ðíå, òîìó ùî æèä³âñüêèé òðàäèö³éíèé ñâ³òîãëÿä ïëèíó ÷àñó ÿê òàêîãî íå âèçíàº, - â³í ðîçðàõîâàíèé íà áåçñìåðòÿ íàö³¿, ³ íàêàçóº íå îãëÿäàòèñÿ íå ³íøèõ. Ñâîºð³äíîþ éîãî êâ³íòåíñåíö³ºþ º çãàäóâàíèé âæå Òàëìóä - òàêèé ñîá³ ðåöåïò íàö³îíàëüíîãî áåçñìåðòÿ. Æèäè - óí³êàëüíà íàö³ÿ, ³ ë³çòè äî íå¿ ç òðèâ³àëüíèì ï³äõîäîì... öå ùîíàéìåíøå íåðîçâàæëèâî.
Æèäè, ïðèíàéìí³ ¿õí³ àâòîðèòåòè çäàþòü ñîá³ ñïðàâó ç òîãî, ùî êîëè á íå ïîºäíàííÿ ïîíÿòü "íàö³îíàëüí³ñòü" ³ ðåë³ã³ÿ", æèä³âñüêà íàö³ÿ, ùî æèâå â ä³àñïîð³, ïåðåñòàëà á ³ñíóâàòè çà ÿê³ñü ê³ëüêà ïîêîë³íü. Îòîé âàø "íåâ³ðó÷èé æèä", â³ðí³øå éîãî íàùàäêè âæå çàñèì³ëþþòüñÿ ³ çà ÿê³ñü 100-150 ðîê³â çà÷èíàþ÷è ç òîãî â³äõîäó â³ä ìàò³ðíüî¿ ðåë³ã³¿ ¿õíüîãî ïðåäêà ¿õ âæå íå áóäå, ÿê æèä³â, â ò.÷. ÷åðåç çì³øàí³ øëþáè. Íàòîì³ñòü ñïðàâà çáåðåæåííÿ ïîïóëÿö³¿ º â ðóêàõ "æèä³â â³ðóþ÷èõ" - âîíè ìàþòü áàãàòî ä³òåé, çã³äíî ç íàñòàíîâàìè ðåë³ã³¿, ³ õî÷ ÿêàñü ÷àñòèíà â³äïëèâຠ÷åðåç "íåâ³ðó", çàòå ÷åðåç "â³ðíèõ" ÷èñëî ãðîìàäè ÿêùî íå çá³ëüøóºòüñÿ, òî õî÷ ÿêîñü ï³ääåðæóºòüñÿ íà ÿêîìóñü ð³âí³.

Îòæå, ñêàçàíî: 100-150 ðîê³â. ² öå ìàêñèìóì ç ìàêñèìóì³â. Äëÿ ïîð³âíÿííÿ: æèä³âñüêà íàö³ÿ ³ñíóº ïîíàä 2500 ðîê³â, ³ ç íèõ ïîíàä 1800 ò³ëüêè â ä³àñïîð³! Æîäíà ³íøà íàö³ÿ â ñâ³ò³ ñò³ëüêè ìàëî¿ ÷èñåëüíîñò³ ñò³ëüêè äîâãî íå ³ñíóº, ïðèíàéìí³ âîíà íå ïàì"ÿòຠñåáå ç-ïåðåä ñò³ëüêè ðîê³â: òîáòî âîíà âæå ³ íàçèâàºòüñÿ ³íàêøå, ³ ìîâà â íå¿ ÿêàñü ³íøà, à ñòàðó âîíà çàáóëà, ³ ïðåäê³â ñâî¿õ ç òî¿ äîáè âîíà íå ïàì"ÿòàº, ³ ò.ä. ³ ò.ï. Òîáòî òî¿ íàö³¿, ùî áóëà, íåìຠ- º ÿêàñü çîâñ³ì ³íøà. À æèäè º, áóëè ³ ïåâíî ùî áóäóòü, õî÷áè ùå ïðîìèíóëî ÿê³ñü 2000 ðîê³â.  òîìó ðàç³, ÿêùî äîòðèìóâàòèìóòü ñâ òðàäèö³¿, çâè÷àéíî, à ÿêàñü ¿õ ÷àñòèíà òå ðîáèòèìå çàâæäè, õî÷ áè òàì ÿêèé áóâ ìîäåðíèé òîé ñâ³ò.



Ïîâåðíåìîñü äî ñë³â: ÿ í³êîëè íå ñòâåðäæóâàâ, ùî "ºâðå¿"="æèäè", á³ëüøå çà òå, ÿ âåñü ÷àñ ãîâîðþ, ùî öå çðîâñ³ì íå òîòîæí³ ïîíÿòòÿ, ùî ¿õ òðåáà ðîçð³çíÿòè, äëÿ òîãî ÿ íàâ³â ³ñòîð³þ ñàìàð³òÿí, ÿê ³íøî¿ ã³ëêè ñòàðîäàâí³õ ãåáðå¿â.



³äñòóï ÷.2: "Ãåáðå¿"="ªâðå¿", öå æ î÷åâèäíî. Ó ïåðåêëàä³ Ñâ. Ïèñüìà âæèâàíî ôîðìó "ºâðå¿" ç òî¿ òî÷íî ïðè÷èíè, ùî é "³ôëåºì" (Bethlehem), "àëôàâ³ò" (alphabeth) ³ ò.ä. Îòæå, öå îäíå òå ñàìå ñëîâî. Êîëè óæèâàºìî "ºâðå¿", éäåòüñÿ ïðî "ãåáðå¿â", òî÷íî òàê ÿê êîëè óæèâàºìî ³ôëåºì òî ìàºìî íà óâàç³ Bethlehem, à íå ùîñü ³íøå, ³ ò.ä. ³ ò.ï. À Âè êàæåòå, íàâàíòàæåííÿ íåìຠíà òîìó ñëîâ³... Ñì³õ òà é ãîä³..

² ùî ö³êàâ³øå, â Á³á볿 ïðàâèëüíî òàêè óæèâàíî: ñàìå "ãåáðå¿/ºâðå¿", áî â Ñòàðîìó Çàïîâ³ò³ éäåòüñÿ ïðî ÂѲ 12 ÏËÅÌÅÍ. Öå âîíè º ãåáðå¿/ºâðå¿. ÂѲ ÐÀÇÎÌ. ² ïðî öå âæå, äî ðå÷³, ïèñàëîñÿ, ìóñèëè á çàóâàæèòè. Àëå:
- ùå â Õ ñò. äåðæâà òèõ ïëåìåí ðîçïàëàñÿ íà äâ³: ²çðà¿ëü ÿê äåðæàâà 10 ïëåìåí, ³ Þäåÿ - ÿê äåðæàâà 2 ïëåìåí, îäíå ç ÿêèõ äóæå íåçíà÷íå, íàéìåíøå ç óñ³õ. Ïåðøà áóëà äîñèòü âåëèêà ³ àêòèâíà ³ çàéìàëà ë³ïø³ çåìë³, é áóëà íà ïåðåõðåñò³ øëÿõ³â, ìàëà âèõ³ä äî ìîðÿ ³ ò.ä. Äðóãà -ìàëåíüêà êðà¿íà ã³ð ³ ïóñòåëü, îñòîðîíü â³ä øëÿõ³â, áåç âèõîäó äî ìîðÿ, ç ìàëèì íàñåëåííÿì.

Ìèíóëî áë. 200 ðîê³â ç ÷àñ³â ðîçêîëó ³ ïåðøà äåðæàâà - ²çðà¿ëü - áóëà çàâîéîâíà àñèð³éöÿìè, - äåðæàâà ïåðåñòàëà ³ñíóâàòè, à â³ä íàñåëåííÿ êðà¿íè ëèøèëèñÿ ÿê³ñü íåçíà÷í³ ðîçáèòêè. Ìîæíà êàçàòè, çíèêëà ìàéæå áåçñë³äíî.

Äðóãà äåðæàâà - Þäåÿ - ïðî³ñíóâàëà ùå áë. 140 ðîê³â, äîêè íå áóëà çàâîéîâàíà Áàáèëîíîì (Àñèð³þ äî òîãî ÷àñó âæå ç"¿ëè, âò.÷. Áàáèëîí). Äóæå âåëèêà ÷àñèíà íàñåëåííÿ îïèíèëàñÿ íà âèãíàíí³, ó òîìó æ Áàáèëîí³.

Ìèíóëî ùå áë. 50 ðîê³â - Áàáèëîí óïàâ, âèãíàíö³ ïî÷àëè âåðòàòè äîì³â, ç äîçâîëó ïåðåìîæö³â-ïåðñ³â. Âîíè ïî÷èíàþòü â³äáóäîâóâàòè ñâîþ êðà¿íó - ³ îñü òóò, ìàéæå ïî 200 ðîêàõ â³ä ÷àñó ðó¿íè äåðæàâè 10-òè ïëåìåí, é ïî 400 ðîêàõ ðîçêîëó íà ãåáðå¿â äâ³ äåðæàâè, âîíè çóñò³÷àþòü ñàìàð³òÿí, íàùàäê³â íåäîáèòê³â. É îñòàíí³ ïðîïîíóþòü ºäí³ñòü. Àëå ¿õ íå âèçíàþòü çà ñâî¿õ. Öåáòî, çíîâó ðîçêîë. Öèì ðàçîì îñòàòî÷íèé: òîæ â³í á³ëüøå ñêèäàºòüñÿ íà êîíñòàòàö³þ ôàêò³â, àí³æ íà ä³þ. Âîíè âæå äàâíî ÷óæ³ îäíå îäíîìó. É ïðèáëèçíî òîä³ æ ÷è òðîõè ðàí³øå â ðîçìîâ³ ïåðåñòàëà óæèâàòèñÿ îòà ãåáðåéñüêà ìîâà, êîëèñü ñï³ëüíà é ð³äíà äëÿ 12 ïëåìåí.

Êðàïêà, VI ñò. ïåðåä íîâîþ åðîþ - "ê³íåöü ñìåðò³" íàðîäó ãåáðå¿â. À 400 ðîê³â ðîçêîëó, ùî äåäàë³ á³ëüøå ïîãëèáëþâàâñÿ, - ÿê ïðîöåñ òî¿ ñìåðò³.

Ïî÷èíàºòüñÿ ïîâíîö³ííî îêðåìà ³ñòîð³ÿ äâîõ íàðîä³â: 1. æèä³â, 2.ñàìàð³òÿí. Íàñïðàâä³ æ âîíè â³äîêðåìèëèñÿ îäíå â³ä îäíîãî ùå ðàí³øå, à ó VI ñò. ïåðåä í.å. ìàëà ì³ñöå ò³ëüêè êîíñòàòàö³ÿ ôàêò³â îêðåì³øíîñò³, òàêà ñîá³ îñòàííÿ ñïðîáà ºäíàííÿ.

Æèäè ³ñíóþòü äîñüîãîäí³, áî ¿ì ñóäèëîñÿ ñòàòè óí³êàëüíîþ ñâî¿ì äîâãèì æèòòÿì íàö³ºþ, íàòîì³ñòü ñàìàð³òÿíè, ÿê áóäü-ÿêà ³íøà çâè÷àéíà íàö³ÿ ïðî³ñíóâàëè ùå ê³ëüêà ñòîð³÷ (çóñòð³÷àºìî ¿õ â ò.÷. Íîâîìó Çàïîâ³ò³) ³ ç³éøëè ³ ³ñòîðè÷íî¿ àðåíè - î÷åâèäíî ùî çàñèì³ëþâàëèñÿ. Âñå.



Îòæå, âèñíîâîê:

1. êîëè ãîâîðèìî ãåáðå¿/ºâðå¿, òî öå ñëîâî òðåáà ñòîñóâàòè äî ÷àñ³â Ñòàðîãî Çàïîâ³òó, êîëè éäåòüñÿ ïðî 12 ãåáðåéñüêèõ ïëåìåí, ³ íå á³ëüøå çà òå.

2. Êîëè ãîâîðèìî æèäè/þäå¿, òî öå ñòîñóºòüñÿ íàö³¿ æèä³â/þäå¿â - íàùàäê³â ãåáðåéñüêîãî ïëåìåí³ æèä³â/þäå¿â - îäíîãî ç 12 ïëåìåí.

3. Êîëè ãîâîðèìî ïðî ìîâó ³âðèò, òî âîíà º ñàìå ãåáðåéñüêà,

4. Êîëè ãîâîðèìî ïðî ìîâó ³äèø, òî âîíà º æèä³âñüêà.

5. ßê îêðåìà íàö³ÿ æèäè ùîíàéï³çí³øå ïîñòàëè â VI ñò. ïåðåä í.å.

6. Ïåð³îä³çàö³ÿ ³ñòîð³¿:
à) ãåáðåéñüêèé ïåð³îä - â³ä çàâîéóâàííÿ Õàíààíó äî ê³íöÿ Õ ñò. ïåðåä í.å. (ðîçêîë)
á) ïåðåõ³äíèé ÷.1 (³ñíóâàííÿ äâîõ äåðæàâ) ê³íåöü Õ - ê³íåöü VIII ñò. ïåðåä í.å.
â) ïåðåõ³äíèé ÷.2 - ê³íåöü VIII - ê³íåöü VI ñò. ïåðåä í.å.
ã) ³ñòîð³ÿ æèä³âñüêîãî íàðîäó - â³ä ê³íöÿ VI ñò. ïåðåä í.å. çà÷èíàþ÷è.

Ìîæíà õ³áà äîäàòè, ùî æèäè óñâ³äîìëþþòü ³ñòîð³þ ãåáðåéñüêîãî ïåð³îäó ÿê ñâîþ òåæ, ùî âèäíî ç³ Ñòàðîãî Çàïîâ³òó, ³ öå ïðàâèëüíî, àëå ÷³òêî âèçíà÷àþòü ñåáå ñàìå íàùàäêàìè ïëåìåí³ æèä³â/þäå¿â, ïðè òîìó ùî ìîâó ìîëèòîâ íàçèâàþòü ãåáðåéñüêîþ - "³âðèò" ë³òåðàëüíî îçíà÷ຠ"ãåáðåéñüêà" (ãåáðåéñüêà ìîâà), ó òîé ÷àñ ÿê "³äèø" ë³òåðàëüíî îçíà÷ຠ"æèä³âñüêèé" (æèä³âñüêà ìîâà). Òîáòî æèäè í³äå í³ â ÷îìó íå ïëóòàþòüñÿ, ³ ïîíÿòòÿ "ãåáðåéñüêèé" â³ä ïîíÿòòÿ "æèä³âñüêèé" â³äð³çíÿþòü.

Òîæ êîëè íàçèâàòè æèä³â ãåáðåÿìè/ºâðåÿìè, òî öå íå ñêàçàòè, ùîá áóëî àæ òàê íåïðàâèëüíî, àëå öå íåòî÷íî, ùîñü ïðèáë. ÿê í³ìö³â íàçèâàòè ãåðìàíöÿìè, ó òîé ÷àñ ÿê ³ñíóþòü øâåäè, íîðâåæö³, äàíö³, àíãë³éö³, ùî âèéøëè ç òîãî ñàìîãî ãåðìàíñüêîãî êîðåíÿ.  øèðîêîìó ñåíñ³ æèäè öå ñïðàâä³ ºâðå¿, àëå òî÷í³øå áóäå ñêàçàòè: æèäè. Òèì á³ëüøå, ùî òàê ðîáëÿòü ñàì³ æèäè.

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