More comment on #1 -- Biene

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Date Posted: 06:14:32 09/24/02 Tue
Author: Tracey~
Subject: More comment on #1
In reply to: 3Strikes/Sorry about the late answers. Crappy Voy 's message, "MONDAY EDITION-PLEASE POST HERE" on 09:37:54 09/23/02 Mon

>1)Why did Xander believe he could help Faith ?
>REVISED: THREE must lead, TWO must deceive. What
>will be the result ?
>ANSWERED by Gentle Spirit: Hubris and lack of
>self-knowledge.
>NEW: PARTIALLY ANSWERED by multiple posters and RJA:
>One of the three is Love. Not characters.
>Motivators/triggers.
>
>RJA said: "So the motivators are love, guilt/grief and
>another. The deceivers are *faulty* clarity and
>hubris, lack of self knowledge?
>Since I'm missing the last, this is an incomplete
>picture, but from what I can glean, Anya will
>die/leave. Xander can't deal with this, blames himself
>etc etc. Now the problem I get to is how he has a
>vision, and what it is of. How does one acquire the
>sight? Or is it just borrowed.
>Either way he has a vision, sees something terrible
>happen to Buffy? (I think), and in his mind the only
>way this can be averted is if he becomes a vampire
>(although Im not sure why, but it must be linked to
>his human status or maybe vamps other status). He
>thinks there is no other way, hence faulty clarity.
>The other deceiver would be his belief that his love
>could transcend his vamped state, or woul compel him
>to act in the right way. Kinda like the inverse Grave
>where he thinks his love can bring Willow back, or the
>Faith example. But in this case its the deceiver
>because it cant - VampXander wont act in the way he
>predicted, and it was never the only choice he could
>have made.
>Close?"
>
>3Strikes's comments: "Ah, Grasshoper! Now we get to
>the meat of the argument. You got 4 of the 5 right.
>The 3rd motivator is easy: what kind of
>feeling/emotion would the kind of *faulty* clarity
>Muad'Dib experienced evoke ? That's the 3rd motivator.
>The sight/vision. Yes. How does one acquire such a
>*gift* ? If you answer #8, you might find someone else
>who was in a similar situation. *g*
>Yes, on the Buffy vision, But how does it relate to
>the Guilt/Grief ?
>Actually, in pratical terms, I don't really know why
>Xander would believe becoming a Vampire could be of
>help to Buffy. My guess is the increase in strength,
>greater resiliency. But it must be something huge.
>In any event, the practical why is interesting but
>secondary to the fact that it does happen.
>Very good on the faulty Clarity. Deceived by the
>vision (think Wesley onATS), and his hubris (belief
>that he holds the only solution), Xander makes a
>lethal mistake. Whether he actually believes he can
>control the vampirism is a very very interesting
>question. Does his hubris extend so far, or does he
>know that he won't be able to control it, and resigns
>himself to become evil to help Buffy. How does this
>make sense ? Well, Vamp Xander might not have a
>choice in helping Buffy. Think of the answer to #6.
>Would Xander accept not only becoming a vampire, but
>an evil monster as well, to help Buffy. I don't know
>the answer to that! I'll be surprised too! But it
>would take a horrible set of circumstances to make it
>happen. Horrible.

May I make a suggestion here? Jane E said that Buffy spent a good part of S6 lying to herself (June interview); WTP pointed out [my long-held belief] that Buffy has always equated love with passion and violence despite what she tells herself. In Something Blue, Buffy said as much, and was about to pooh-pooh a ship with Riley until her spell-induced foray with Spike, after which she jumped all over the non-passion-inducing affair with Riley.

Marti, in her most recent interview w/ Wanda, also said that Buffy and Spike had a shared violence that negated need for apologies.

If we take as a given that Buffy has been fighting herself (or who she really is) for a long time, and contrast that with Xander's view of Buffy and heros, I imagine that a moment of clarity for Xander -- real clarity -- would be learning that Buffy, his hero, isn't who he thought she was.

Now what happens when you find out that someone who walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, *isn't* a duck after all?

With Willow, Xander didn't give a crap -- which I thought was ultimately cool, btw (though I hated the writing in Grave). With his long-time, long-loved friends, Xander is capable of ignoring his very strict moral codes. We also see that with his relationship with Anya.

With Buffy, it's been different because Buffy's always denied (as WTP suggested) that she liked being in dangerous, violent ships. Buffy essentially blamed bad luck for her ship with Angel, and determined 'never again'; and with Spike, she blamed being resurrected "wrong" for her attraction to Spike. And so Xander's tried to support her position -- in ITW, he made that speech to Buffy about how she shouldn't let Riley go, and in SR he freaked on Buffy for being with Spike because he's obviously "bad".

(I don't blame Xander, btw, because as WTP pointed out, Buffy's the one who has historically insisted that she wants to be a normal girl with a normal ship. Xander was just doing the support-that-notion thing; trying to help her help herself, maybe).

Beyond ships, if Xander found out that Buffy wasn't the unadulterated hero he always believed, that would sort of jolt him, I think. I can still see him accepting it eventually -- like with Willow, and Anya, you embrace your friends for who they really are, without judging them.

OTOH, what if he thinks, initially, that Buffy is, or is turning into, the enemy? What if the PTB were to approach him and say, "Buffy's rooted in darkness, see her fawning over Spike? and she will eventually be humanity's doom." Would Xander indeed turn on Buffy? Or might he join the other team (not sexually, PLEASE! Switch from 'Good PTB' to Chaos, or 'Bad', to remain on what he thinks is Buffy's team?)

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Fascinating. Especially the stuff about Buffy. -- 3Strikes, 08:41:39 09/24/02 Tue