Fascinating. Especially the stuff about Buffy. -- Biene

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Date Posted: 08:41:39 09/24/02 Tue
Author: 3Strikes
Subject: Fascinating. Especially the stuff about Buffy.
In reply to: Tracey~ 's message, "More comment on #1" on 06:14:32 09/24/02 Tue

But what would be Xander's gut motivation? Your theory is sort of *bloodless*. I don't mean that's it's unconvincing, but from an emotional stand point what would be Xander's motivation ? What about his support system? Do you think he would so lightly turn if he had Anya, Willow and Dawn's support ? Or if he was in a happy relationship with Anya ? Wanting to stay on Buffy's team is a good motivator, but remember Nightmares, he was still on her team event hough she had become a vampire. I think it requires a great deal more pain and angts for Xander to accept to make the jump willingly.
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>>RJA said: "So the motivators are love, guilt/grief and
>>another. The deceivers are *faulty* clarity and
>>hubris, lack of self knowledge?
>>Since I'm missing the last, this is an incomplete
>>picture, but from what I can glean, Anya will
>>die/leave. Xander can't deal with this, blames himself
>>etc etc. Now the problem I get to is how he has a
>>vision, and what it is of. How does one acquire the
>>sight? Or is it just borrowed.
>>Either way he has a vision, sees something terrible
>>happen to Buffy? (I think), and in his mind the only
>>way this can be averted is if he becomes a vampire
>>(although Im not sure why, but it must be linked to
>>his human status or maybe vamps other status). He
>>thinks there is no other way, hence faulty clarity.
>>The other deceiver would be his belief that his love
>>could transcend his vamped state, or woul compel him
>>to act in the right way. Kinda like the inverse Grave
>>where he thinks his love can bring Willow back, or the
>>Faith example. But in this case its the deceiver
>>because it cant - VampXander wont act in the way he
>>predicted, and it was never the only choice he could
>>have made.
>>Close?"
>>
>>3Strikes's comments: "Ah, Grasshoper! Now we get to
>>the meat of the argument. You got 4 of the 5 right.
>>The 3rd motivator is easy: what kind of
>>feeling/emotion would the kind of *faulty* clarity
>>Muad'Dib experienced evoke ? That's the 3rd
>motivator.
>>The sight/vision. Yes. How does one acquire such a
>>*gift* ? If you answer #8, you might find someone else
>>who was in a similar situation. *g*
>>Yes, on the Buffy vision, But how does it relate to
>>the Guilt/Grief ?
>>Actually, in pratical terms, I don't really know why
>>Xander would believe becoming a Vampire could be of
>>help to Buffy. My guess is the increase in strength,
>>greater resiliency. But it must be something huge.
>>In any event, the practical why is interesting but
>>secondary to the fact that it does happen.
>>Very good on the faulty Clarity. Deceived by the
>>vision (think Wesley onATS), and his hubris (belief
>>that he holds the only solution), Xander makes a
>>lethal mistake. Whether he actually believes he can
>>control the vampirism is a very very interesting
>>question. Does his hubris extend so far, or does he
>>know that he won't be able to control it, and resigns
>>himself to become evil to help Buffy. How does this
>>make sense ? Well, Vamp Xander might not have a
>>choice in helping Buffy. Think of the answer to #6.
>>Would Xander accept not only becoming a vampire, but
>>an evil monster as well, to help Buffy. I don't know
>>the answer to that! I'll be surprised too! But it
>>would take a horrible set of circumstances to make it
>>happen. Horrible.
>
>May I make a suggestion here? Jane E said that Buffy
>spent a good part of S6 lying to herself (June
>interview); WTP pointed out [my long-held belief] that
>Buffy has always equated love with passion and
>violence despite what she tells herself. In Something
>Blue, Buffy said as much, and was about to pooh-pooh a
>ship with Riley until her spell-induced foray with
>Spike, after which she jumped all over the
>non-passion-inducing affair with Riley.
>
>Marti, in her most recent interview w/ Wanda, also
>said that Buffy and Spike had a shared violence that
>negated need for apologies.
>
>If we take as a given that Buffy has been fighting
>herself (or who she really is) for a long time, and
>contrast that with Xander's view of Buffy and heros, I
>imagine that a moment of clarity for Xander -- real
>clarity -- would be learning that Buffy, his hero,
>isn't who he thought she was.
>
>Now what happens when you find out that someone who
>walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, *isn't* a
>duck after all?
>
>With Willow, Xander didn't give a crap -- which I
>thought was ultimately cool, btw (though I hated the
>writing in Grave). With his long-time, long-loved
>friends, Xander is capable of ignoring his very strict
>moral codes. We also see that with his relationship
>with Anya.
>
>With Buffy, it's been different because Buffy's always
>denied (as WTP suggested) that she liked being in
>dangerous, violent ships. Buffy essentially blamed
>bad luck for her ship with Angel, and determined
>'never again'; and with Spike, she blamed being
>resurrected "wrong" for her attraction to Spike. And
>so Xander's tried to support her position -- in ITW,
>he made that speech to Buffy about how she shouldn't
>let Riley go, and in SR he freaked on Buffy for being
>with Spike because he's obviously "bad".
>
>(I don't blame Xander, btw, because as WTP pointed
>out, Buffy's the one who has historically insisted
>that she wants to be a normal girl with a normal ship.
> Xander was just doing the support-that-notion thing;
>trying to help her help herself, maybe).
>
>Beyond ships, if Xander found out that Buffy wasn't
>the unadulterated hero he always believed, that would
>sort of jolt him, I think. I can still see him
>accepting it eventually -- like with Willow, and Anya,
>you embrace your friends for who they really are,
>without judging them.
>
>OTOH, what if he thinks, initially, that Buffy is, or
>is turning into, the enemy? What if the PTB were to
>approach him and say, "Buffy's rooted in darkness, see
>her fawning over Spike? and she will eventually be
>humanity's doom." Would Xander indeed turn on Buffy?
>Or might he join the other team (not sexually, PLEASE!
> Switch from 'Good PTB' to Chaos, or 'Bad', to remain
>on what he thinks is Buffy's team?)

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