R1 -- Sight & Sound

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 15:33:52 04/30/02 Tue
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)

[home] [vip] [post] [first] [next]
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:01
Hmmm!!! No one here. OH WELL. Good morning. BBL GLW.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 1:02
I like your boycott method... Question, has anyone done a statistical analysis to see if there is more problem in the Catholic clergy than in any other or in the general population? I think they may just be the ones who have gotten caught, so far.

Nah, Protestant ministers and Jewish rabbis and gym teachers all show similar percentages of pedophilia. What makes the Church special is that it isn't disgusted by those people and seeks actively to shelter them and enable their further abuses.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 0:18
"advocating seeking God on your own ... all you can assert at this point is that you have strongly held doubts." The doubts are about any claim of exclusive knowlege or elitism. I have no doubts about God, except that He is beyond definitions, certainly beyond MY abilities to do so.

"certain of how passages were meant to be translated" In this I have to trust the scholarship of others and I read from many sources and compare them. I am not a scholar at all. It is presumably about these kinds of questions that this forum invites debate. If there were no issues up for debate, why are you here? To preach?
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 0:11
But if you or anyone else thinks to convert me to their religion, they have to present something pretty convincing that equals my experience of God...not just a debate, but a true relating of something that has changed their spiritual lives. The ones who claim to have the TRUTH, have also the burdon of proof.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 0:01
I hold the belief in God as a positive continually creative being, a being of love by expereince of having clung to him while going through some excruciating experiences. He was made real to me...I glimpsed the glory and have been changed by it. Can I relate it to a doctrine...not really...I can barely put it into words...it is beyond words. But I continue to read and pray and study, hoping to find truth in a defined form, having found at least a positive group to worship with and not feeling like so much of a loner anymore.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 23:57
"you have some very strongly held beliefs." My most strongly held belief is that God is a God of Love. Love=Positive Creative Energy and that creation is something that is continuous and is innate in humans as well.

"Same tired verses" Those who would claim that Jesus is the same as the Father present time after time that one verse, that I don't think balance against the number of verses that are contrary to it. BTW you still haven't tried to answer that question.

"referring to them perjoratively as indoctrinated Bible thumping wonders and presuming them not to have sought God on their own" The ones I was referring to do not evidence the first sign of Christians love, they spout scripture, but it is from a dead spirit or so it seems.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Stephen
Monday April 29, 2002 at 23:41
Well, I see a couple of those in the non-Christian ranks, too. I guess it's not necessarily a religious fanatic foible, eh? BTW, I wasn't including you in the ranks of pomposity.
[Verified Stephen James] Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 22:47
"pompous blowhards"

Pompous, From Websters : 1.Suggesting ostentatious display. 2. Marked by pretention of self-importance.

The only blowhards I see on this forum who are also pompous are those who arrogantly believe their religion makes them more important in the eyes of God than others.
[Verified Stephen James] Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 22:11
Can you please define "Sola Scriptura" for the forum...
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink pt 2
Monday April 29, 2002 at 21:35
And yet, advocating seeking God on your own and presumably having taken this approach yourself, all you can assert at this point is that you have strongly held doubts. Some good seeking God on your own has done for you. So, you are a walking, talking contradiction. You seek God and end up with doubts. You claim a wish for removal of confusion and yet also claim to be certain of how passages were meant to be translated and then turn to express disdain for those who might dissuade you and to rip their scholarship. In the end, you've got nothing and you don't allow for anyone else to have anything either. By any standard, this is darkness and confusion. Contradiction and double mindedness. It's really very sad.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink pt 1
Monday April 29, 2002 at 21:25
No, you have some very strongly held beliefs. You post them up constantly. You say you have strongly held doubts, but in the same breath you both express the wish to have your doubts removed AND great confidence that you have the correct translation and that those who might hope to dissuade you hold to a translation that is tired and incorrect. By any standard, this is talking out of both sides of your mouth. You go beyond expressing doubts to expressing disdain for others by referring to them perjoratively as indoctrinated Bible thumping wonders and presuming them not to have sought God on their own. As if you know this for certain about them. (cont'd)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 21:05
"You have some very strongly held beliefs," I have some very strongly held doubts... I wouldn't mind of someone could really make them disappear. but the same tired incorrectly translated verses keep being trotted out to prove doctrines that may or may not have validity. If they do, fine. If not, why can't some of these Bible thumping wonders think outside their indocrtination and seek god on their own? If I can't trust the messenger's experience and I can't trust the interpretations of scripture to be true, then how am I going to trust you when you say you have certitude? Why do you have certitude and is it based on experience? Or is it hopeful thinking? I welcome your e-mail. TTFN
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:59
I'm here.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:50
I met your five minute deadline. Where are you? I am giving you the answer to your other question via e-mail.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:42
You have some very strongly held beliefs, but when they are challenged you retreat into a defensive posture of some kind. It's shameless.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:39
I'll give you five more minutes to respond then if you're gone, so am I. I really think I should give you and Dori a five point penalty for "piling on"... ;)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Dori & Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:32
Dorito: Well, I certainly feel attacked now... ;)

Murray: I thought we could discuss things and ask each other., IF Jesus is God, why did he deny it? If the original language says one thing, why did they make it something else in English? I didn't know that to tell what we have heard or think about something was supposed to mean that we know everything about it...we don't...I'd like to just shut this thing down, but I really can't figure you guys out and that bugs me. If you have all this "certitude, perhaps you can give some of it away. But you better be convincing, since you're claiming to have the certitude. ;)
Time Out Moderator
In Response To Contestants
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:21
time to stop...
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:20
The operative words were "WE ALL"! That means every person who posts here, even you! Now will you kindly leave me alone? I don't care to talk to you about anything whatsoever. I'm tired of you turning my words around and finding meanings in them other than what I posted. Thank you!
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:19
Give me a huge break. You come out with both guns blazing with great certainty about what Jesus wasn't. Not God. Not even the only begotten Son, but the first. Somehow you found one translator or scholar that conveniently disagrees with the other 99 per cent and you come off as quite certain that this is the correct one. Then you back peddle big time that we can't be certain about what any of this means. You've certainly had time to develop this very high and authoritative sounding argument on one hand and yet haven't had the time or taken the time to sort the rest of it out. And yet, this is fine with you. That dog won't hunt. Either you've studied and come to firm conclusions about Jesus or you haven't. Apparently, you haven't.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Certitude
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:14
Those who say they absolutely KNOW the truth are on an ego trip or they don't really know or they are trying to make us think they know... it is impossible that they really know anything other than what they have read or been told, unless they have had direct experiences with God.. Most Christians I've talked to say that direct contact is not happening in this "dispensation", which means that they just don't experience God directly. If I have given you the idea that I know more than anyone else, it is an incorrect impression. I, like everyone else hopes and has faith, but certitude will have to wait for Heaven... :)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:08
"The sad thing is that you will probably find a way to give yourself a pass for such duplicity. Certitude or lack of certitude. Whichever suits you at the time. " You have no call to call me duplicitous. I and you both read scripture and try to live our lives in it's light...mostly we try to figure out what it means... A lot of what we say is a speculation, because we don't know. You may have more formed or solidified opinions, but the truth is that you don't KNOW any more than anyone else. We're not here trying to knock each other out of the box with scintillating debate, we're discussing...at least that's what I thought was happening.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:04
This is what you said, do you want to re-phrase it or explain what your eally meant? " dori Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:33
" No, the bottom line is.. . we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad fact. " Didn't you mean that someone here is being attacked, possibly you? If not, I apologise for misunderstanding what the H... I mean what you were trying to say. ;)
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:59
When it suits you to do so, you definitively argue on the side that Jesus wasn't God or even the only begotten Son of God, but the first begotten Son of God and that we are given power to be sons of God too. Which means what? Apparently that He was a man as we are and/or can become.

When you are pinned down to prove this by your own life experience and realize you can't, you go into a riff about how we can't be sure about what any of this means.

The sad thing is that you will probably find a way to give yourself a pass for such duplicity. Certitude or lack of certitude. Whichever suits you at the time.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Coinky
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:55
Where did I say I was being attacked? Kindly quit editorializing my posts if you can't get it right. Why don't you post to someone who cares what trend you're following this week? Do you like having people angry with you? Do you think if you keep nagging at me and misrepresenting me I'll go away? Think again. I'm not going anywhere. You have a lot of others here to talk to so leave me alone. [first] [next] [post]
Powered by Webforums
Copyright � 1997 - 2001 Waveshift, Inc.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]