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Date Posted: 10:44:11 05/12/02 Sun
dori
In Response To BTW, Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:48
I agree with your thoughts about George Fox, too. He seemed to have the right spiritual conviction. It appears that the modern arm of his movement has gone a bit more toward the service aspect of the faith than the spiritual, as have many different denominations moved towards this post modern approach, to their detriment, I might add. We don't need experimentation with God's word, just respectful adherence to His simple plan.
dori
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:39
Yes, your frustrations with her are the same as mine, but in this instance, I really do think she was being straight with us. True, she wasn't really seeking answers for herself, as she has made her mind up already, but I do think she was putting those questions out there for discussion for the room and they were valid. I also think the answers were good. It is how I envisioned discussion would be in this room all of the time when I first came here.
Who knows??? You may have given her the answer that finally clicked and she will accept that Jesus is the Christ.
dori
In Response To Stephen
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:32
Re: Tragedies and Miracles happen all the time. No-one can predict the outcome of an event as they stand there watching it.
That's exactly right. Those types of things happen 24/7. They are the tribulations of life which Eve and Adam brought upon us by their frailty. God never promised us we wouldn't have heartaches and tragedies, but He did promise He would be there for us to turn to in those terrible times. He's there for you, too.
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:30
See, I strongly suspect that her questions aren't really questions. She has a point of view already, I feel. It's not that she hasn't read or studied or been around the block a few times, you know. But also, what she believes is not true for the most part. So, truth being stronger than lies, I just keep putting the truth up there. She either doesn't read or is at least somewhat dismissive of it for the most part as she rarely contends with me on a substantive point that I make. Also, I quote a lot from Quaker founder George Fox, but she hasn't really taken that subject on in a substantive way either. So, like I said, I try very hard with her. The jury is out on her attentiveness, though.
dori
In Response To Hey Ron!
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:26
I didn't see you slip in. Did you see my earlier post to you? Thank you for posting about the Eucharist. I haven't read it all yet, but plan to this weekend. Since I signed up last fall to be one of many who help keep the perpetual chapel open, I have strived to better understand that mystery.
dori
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:19
Well, this time she wasn't asking touchy feely questions or espousing a vague feeling about God. She asked specifically why Jesus appeared to be denying several times that he was the Christ. And her points were valid. You, Gerry, Ron and I all answered her, but your answers were particularly good and I enjoyed reading them. No hidden meaning, hon. Keep giving testimony for Christ. You are very talented.
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:11
Thanks, Doris. I'm still baffled. I'm not quite sure what you mean by my answers being excellent. At heart, I am a teacher, so if people don't learn anything, I don't think what I did was so excellent. I try so hard with her, I really do. I feel, though, that I'm battling something pretty strong. I'm pretty sure she doesn't even read the stuff I write to her. I used the term 'sappy universalism' at least 4 times before she suddenly flipped out over it. Nevertheless, she keeps coming back for more. LOL
dori
In Response To witness and Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:03
Witness! Sorry I missed you, but hope you'll get some time to come back online before you traipse off yet again. I'm sure you lead an exciting life, but wouldn't it be nice to laze around now and then with no place to go for a couple of days?
Murray: I didn't mean anything by my comment other than to say I enjoyed the discussion. She asked questions of someone who respectfully answered them. Your answers were excellent. 8-)
RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 18:58
Gotta wonder what your omniscient, omnipotent, perfect God was thinking that day...
Perhaps this was God's mercy to the child. Perhaps He saw that the road this child would have chosen would lead him into misery and called him home before this could happen. Who presumes to know the mind of God? Christ told us that in this world we would have tribulation. I can't imagine suffering any worse than losing your child.
Stephen James
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 18:50
Tragedies and Miracles happen all the time. No-one can predict the outcome of an event as they stand there watching it. There was no woman in the lobby of that hotel telling her husband not to worry, as they watched the child fall, because God was gonna work a miracle and save the child. If there had been, well she would have been wrong.
These things happen because of Chance. There is no God running around Micro-managing things for us humans. There is no God who would idly watch the misery of a dead child and mourning parents while at the same time whipping up a breeze to move a fat woman into position to land on a car and live when she obviously wants to die...IMO
GerryB.
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 17:08
There is no place in God's Holy Word where He promises to protect people from the result of their own stupidity. In fact He makes parents responsible for protecting their children. Why weren't those parents watching their children?
Sim 2
In Response To ctaj
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 16:47
Gotta wonder what your omniscient, omnipotent, perfect God was thinking that day...
Maybe in his "foreknowledge", taking one as a child was the only way a member of that family would be saved, Plus a "Zillion" other reasons, we can't see/know the future as God does.
No matter what the family could have given the child here on earth, they could never come close to the world it now occupies.
As Paul said:, for me to live is Christ, for me to die is "GAIN".
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 16:45
So, how'd you hit 'em yesterday, Jeff? My son played Thursday and was hitting unbelievable drives off the tee but muffed the other parts of the game and ended up with a typical score for him. For some reason, his comment took my mind back to a book, Psycho-Cybernetics, I read years ago by a plastic surgeon, Dr. Maxwell Maltz, about how our self image pretty much takes us to the same result all the time.
`Ctaj
In Response To Stephen James
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 16:29
Both. She landed on her butt on the roof of a Honda.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 16:20
"She lands on the roof of a Honda, which breaks her fall, and she walks away bewildered, her only injury a broken arm."
I've always said that Honda makes one fine automobile.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 16:17
"Gotta wonder what your omniscient, omnipotent, perfect God was thinking that day...
He was probably thinking the same thing I am thinking, "Why aren't his parents watching him more carefully?"
Stephen James
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 15:49
Our local paper said the woman landed on her butt...no mention of a Honda. Weird. I don't recall if it was from the AP or not. Now I am wondering which it was.lol
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 15:42
Day before yesterday, I read about a woman in her 20's who had attempted suicide by overdose, but was found and had her stomach pumped. Three days later, she climbs on a chair next to the window of a 14th floor apartment, and jumps. She lands on the roof of a Honda, which breaks her fall, and she walks away bewildered, her only injury a broken arm.
God has quite a sense of humor.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 15:40
A member of our foursome showed up at the last minute yesterday. He'd come from a funeral for some friends' five year old son. They went to Cancun on vacation last week, and as their 11 yr old helped mom and dad bring the luggage into the hotel room, the 5 and 2 year olds were left briefly unattended. The 5 year old ran to the balcony to look down for the swimming pool, fell over the rail 8 floors to his death.
Gotta wonder what your omniscient, omnipotent, perfect God was thinking that day...
The Mod's Response: Tom Flocco's son died the same way at the same place last year....he was 20, I believe... There is a major lawsuit ongoing for multiple deaths in Cancun from falling over balconies. Seems they are not very secure or railed high enough. Robin
Murray
In Response To witness
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 13:17
You are so right. That is why I quoted Fox who said that the Spirit leads us upward to Christ and to God. It is not our doing, but we sure can either fight against it or recognize it as true and present our bodies a living sacrifice to Him for that purpose.
*******************
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 22:59
I only have time for one post then I have an art project to work on... You said that I am saying that Jesus denied being the Christ... That isn't what I said. I said that he denied being God. Christ is a greek word meaning Messiah, annointed one. Christ is a title that also denotes a person who is speaking the wisdom of God in his name, a chosen vessel for his wisdom. I believe that he was elevated by God to that position, chosen before his birth and given wisdom and authority. That is not the same as being God... and it in no way negates his work on the cross... if anything makes it more valid, because he was a man who was sacrificed in obedience to the Father... a real sacrifice and death, not just a temporary inconvenience. IMHO
Murray
In Response To Gerry
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 22:53
Have you ever read the book The Practice Of The Presence Of God by Brother Lawrence?
GerryB.
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 22:42
If you are still here, I sorry that I missed you earlier. It was just a few minutes before 10:00 in my time zone and there was a program on TV that I wanted to watch. So when I got done reading everything I went and watched it. Then I stayed for the news until the sports came on. Then I shut the fool thing off and here I am. Willy got his Grandma to go pick him and his Mom and Dad up so that they could all go to the circus which is in town this week. He and his Mom stayed over night at Grandma's place and I thought that they might stop by here so that he and I could talk and play for a while. They didn't so I spent the day alone. I put the ingredients for a pot of Chili into the crock pot. Tomorrow afternoon it'll be just about right to eat.
Sim 2
In Response To Dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:49
Well, My "drive by's" are over, I'm outa gas, literally.
I'm not use to "physical work", and cleaning a graveyard is "physical work".LOL
But it's work that must be done, I'd hate for someone to be resurrected and miss out on going because they got "hung on a Briar". Nowatimean???
ROFL.
SYT GLW atrdh, JKG.
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:47
No, you weren't irritating me 'tall. I'll look for you later...
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:42
Anyway, to close up the subject for now, I have issues with Jeanie and most modern day Quakers. They miss the mark of Fox's message and, thus, of the gospel. In fact they have corrupted it. Much like the liberals do to the Constitution. It's not surprising, also, that many religious liberals are also political liberals. They have a problem with, "It is written." Anyway, they miss the fact of that turning point. From darkness to light. From Adam to Christ. From sinner to saint. From death to life. The Bible is full of these types of things so you would think they couldn't be missed. But, like Sim says, there is a great turning away...
dori
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:38
No need to apologize. I thought maybe I was irritating you and just wanted you to know it wasn't intentional. It looks like Gerry, Sim and Connie were doing drive bys, huh? I really do have a few things to do, so I'll be back after while. Talk to you soon!
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:34
Doris, I had no problem with anything there. I was laughing at myself through your remarks. I had quite a head of steam on me when I wrote that stuff, so when you pointed it out, it just made me chuckle about how I can get sometimes. Sorry it hit you the way it did.
dori
In Response To Hey! Miss Connie!
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:29
I'm glad I peeked back in before leaving. It's always a pleasure to see you here. I think Murray has been in top form today, even if he DOESN'T want to hear it... grin.
dori
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:27
What made me say your words were impassioned? LOL!
I get hot every time I go to this subject. The guy was just so precious and he has been reduced to something far less. Shame on the people that did this!
Those words were quite passionate to me, but if that is offensive to you to commend your for your passionate convictions, I take it back. See ya later. Seems you are having a bit of difficulty with what I'm posting and I have other things to do. 8-)
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:25
And all of this gradual victory stuff is basically hogwash. Again, it sounds good and can be supported in a certain sense, but it is not the truth of how it really is. We must first be born again, as I said, but also the Scripture teaches:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:17-18)
No alternate victory and defeat there. (cont'd)
Connie
In Response To Hi Dori/Murray/Sim
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:25
Good discussion going here I see.
Murray: Have you ever read any of W. Phillip Keller's books (one of my favorite authors BTW).
dori
In Response To Hi Sim
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:22
Amen to that, brothah!!!
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:20
That is why the Bible talks about being born again because, just as our natural birth was at a point in time and relatively sudden and changed our status forever, this is what our spiritual birth also is. At one point, we hear the Word of God and it, at once, convicts us of our need for Christ and we take Him as Lord and Savior. The Quakers today talk of a kind of gradual thing whereby "after alternate victories and defeats, they become at last fully obedient to the will of God as inwardly apprehended and centered in the Light." This "sounds good," but it simply is not true. It just isn't. Jesus says, "You must be born again." (John 3:7)
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:20
What's makes you think my words were impassioned? LOL Well, sure, By overthrowing Fox, they overthrew Christ because Fox had a pure message of Christ. That is the central core of his that they stripped away, leaving only little relatively incidental details of his life intact. At the risk of oversimplifying, I firmly believe, at the very least, for all of us there must be a specific point in our lives of an awakening to the fact that something is very wrong and that Jesus Christ is the answer to it. Something less than this or other than this will not and does not cut it. That is why the Bible talks about being born again because, just as our natural birth was at a point in time and relatively sudden and changed our status forever, (cont'd)
Murray
In Response To Sim
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:12
Sim, you're right. The falling away is as you say. I almost said something very similar myself, but I edited it out. Obviously, the Spirit wanted it said and you showed up with it. Shows how we're all connected and how He works.
Sim 2
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:02
From having read his autobiography, he would have laid them out but good. Obviously, I just love the guy and it's tragic how far the Quakers have strayed.
It aint just the Quakers, it's almost "EVERYBODY".
The "falling away" has almost reached "supersonic speed".
Listen to what is being preached, "VERY LITTLE" doctrine of salvation, I don't think most understand the "parables", which is the Bible.
Most preach to "Save the Church", "HOW TO", save your marriage, your children, your money, your home, your car, and are letting the sinner, LITERALLY", go to Hell.
Guess there's "more money" in "feel good" preaching than in condemning people for sinning.
dori
In Response To Hi Gerry
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 21:00
Nice to see you here. How's the day been for you?
GerryB.
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 20:57
RE: "There is no God running around Micro-managing things for us humans.:
You are partly right. God allows bad things to happen to good people. Not out of meanness because He takes no joy in it. He has numerous reasons for allowing them to happen. Sometimes it is to teach us a lesson. Most times we will never know why. It is not important to His plan for us to know why. He does not have to explain anything to us. If He desires to do so He will.
dori
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 20:44
When reading your impassioned words just now, I was struck by the similarity with how they have also done Christ, too. It is as if the very thing that brought them together--to worship God and share His love--somehow became extemporaneous in their pursuit of projecting peace and fellowship to the downtrodden. That's pretty amazing! How can you have that without Christ remaining the focal point?
Murray
In Response To dori: still more on fox
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 20:20
They know of all the tertiary details of his life, like that he refused to tip his hat to anyone and that he was persecuted by the Puritans, but his central core has been removed. As far as I can see it, somebody literally has hell to pay for that little piece of revisionism. I get hot every time I go to this subject. The guy was just so precious and he has been reduced to something far less. Shame on the people that did this!
Murray
In Response To dori: more on fox
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 20:20
Anyway, if it were somehow possible for Fox to come back and preach in the average Quaker meeting house of today and they wouldn't know it was him, they would throw him out bodily for his boldness and uncompromising preaching of Jesus Christ and the reliability and complete truthfulness of what he called the Holy Scriptures. From having read his autobiography, he would have laid them out but good. Obviously, I just love the guy and it's tragic how far the Quakers have strayed. The message this man gave his life and was imprisoned many times for preaching is not taught by the Quakers today and would not be recognized. (cont'd)
dori
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 20:13
I think saying Fox believed and taught the polar opposite to Catholic tradition is a big stretch, but I am no expert on him so I'll not debate the issue with you. BTW, Catholicism is one of the denominations I referred to when chastising them for their post modern trends. Many of today's Catholics want the traditional stance of the church relaxed as it pertains to many of the social issues. That is so they can have their abortions and multiple marriages guilt-free. You can't have it both ways, though.
Murray
In Response To dori re: George Fox
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 20:04
Your comments are interesting in that Fox teaches a view that is the polar opposite of what Ron calls traditional Catholicism. I'd be fascinated to know your thoughts, though, on what specifically you like about Fox. Fascinated as all get out. What you say about the direction the Quakers have taken is correct. The thing that distresses me so much is that Fox, to me, was the most orthodox of Christians I have ever seen and the farthest thing from a universalist you can get and yet modern Quakers say, "Quakerism is neither exclusively Christian…nor is it exclusively Universalist. Quakerism has always been a curious amalgam of both" This makes my blood boil as much as anything I have ever read in my life. It is an outright heresy, a lie of the first magnitude.
Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 19:51
You think she was being straight with us, eh? At the risk of enraging her, I do not think she is capable of that and I do not mean that as an insult but as a commentary on the condition of her soul. Anyway, one of the nice things about the forum is that a certain number of other people besides the apparent addressee read it. In my case, I am constantly learning and teaching about biblical subjects and most especially, as Peter put it, growing in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Pet 3:18) So, it is from that I share and whoever benefits, so be it. The primary beneficiary is probably me, because I have to teach it to myself first, if that makes sense.
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