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Date Posted: 10:52:48 05/12/02 Sun
RonB
In Response To St. Teresa of Avila
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:22
That is certain truth, as I know; and I also know people who walk along the road of love, solely, as they should, in order to serve Christ crucified, and not only do they neither ask for consolations nor desire them, but they beg Him not to give them to them in this life. The fifth reason is that we should be labouring in vain; for this water does not flow through conduits, as the other does, and so we gain nothing by fatiguing ourselves if it cannot be had at the source. I mean that, however much we may practise meditation, however much we do violence to ourselves, and however many tears we shed, we cannot produce this water in those ways; it is given only to whom God wills to give it and often when the soul is not thinking of it at all.
RonB
In Response To All
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 5:54
I've finally have done a little study concerning Brother Lawrence. I find it odd that Murray would use the writings of a Carmelite monk, in good standing with the Church, to attack the organized practices of the Catholic Church. He must be aware that, as a monk, Brother Lawrence had appointed hours of prayer, attended Mass, probably said the Rosary daily and was involved in all these other so-called "distracting" practices. The Catholic Church has many mystics -- and many ways of contemplating God -- Brother Lawrence's writings detail one of these ways.
Sunny
In Response To Brother Lawrence~
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 4:28
Whatever remedies you make use of, they will succeed only so far as He permits. When pains come from God, He only can cure them. He often sends diseases of the body to cure those of the soul. Comfort yourself with the sovereign Physician both of soul and body.
Sunny
In Response To Murray~
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 4:26
Thanks for sharing this, this brother has got it! Did you learn of him back when you listened to Roy Masters? (G) sure sounds like someone that thinks much like him. Of course, those that have the true Spirit will think alike, each having their own style of sharing it with others. huggz~
Sunny
In Response To Brother Lawrence- beautiful
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 4:24
I do not advise you to use multiplicity of words in prayer; many words and long discourses being often the occasions of wandering: hold yourself in prayer before God, like a dumb or paralytic beggar at a rich man's gate: let it be your business to keep your mind in the presence of the Lord.
If your mind sometimes wanders, and withdraws itself from Him, do not much disquiet yourself for that; trouble and disquiet serve rather to distract the mind, than to re-collect it; the will must bring it back in tranquillity; if you persevere in this manner, God will have pity on you.
One way to re-collect the mind easily in the time of prayer, and preserve it more in tranquillity, is not to let it wander too far at other times.
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 4:09
"See,I strongly suspect that her questions aren't really questions. She has a point of view already,I feel."
One that your great teachings just can't seem to crack eh? For a guy claiming to be presenting the truth, you sure are horrible at conversions.
I would suggest you attempt to listen to someone elses truth, you'd make a better student than teacher. I find Jeanies truth much clearer than the mud you been tossing around, I believe she could teach you a thing or two about God.
Too bad you already have a point of view which you seem intent on shoving in peoples faces followed by personal attacks when your deceitful truth is rejected. But don't worry, if you reject Jeanies presentation of truth, I guarantee she won't lower herself to viper standards.
Stephen James
In Response To RonB/Forum
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 3:56
"Who presumes to know the mind of God?"
Well...how about all the various writers of the thousands of religious texts found within the vast library created by Man...? All Humans have the ability to convince themselves that they do know the mind of God, any of us can concoct a "great plan" and assign it as coming from God. Getting all of Mankind to except such a contention seems to be a big problem...maybe because God refuses to back anyones contentions up as he supposedly did thousands of years ago with guys like Moses.
Only God knows the mind of God. Man merely presumes, assumes, speculates, contemplates, considers, deliberates, reflects upon, meditates upon, supposes and surmises about the Mind of God.
dori
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 1:19
I bookmarked the site. Good night! Sleep well!
Murray
In Response To dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 0:48
Last post, Doris. Good night!
dori
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 0:40
Well, take it to Ron's forum. I'm sure he'd like to discuss it with you. His forum is not just about Catholicism, you know. I see you've been visiting him. I haven't read the thread yet, but plan to tonight or tomorrow. I'm sure it was good.
Murray
In Response To dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 0:22
I think it's important to understand all of these things and use the terms properly, but it is not the most important thing. I was asking Gerry about whether he had every read The Practice Of The Presence Of God by Brother Lawrence. I would like to have a whole forum to talk only about that. It would revolutionize our lives and completely change our hearts, I'm telling you. The doctrine of the Trinity and the definition of terms will not do that.
dori
In Response To Thanks, Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 0:14
That's the way I see it, too. Christ is the Messiah. The trinity is not a hard concept for me, BTW. It makes perfect sense. Just don't ask me to define it because I always mess it up. LOL!
Murray
In Response To dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 0:09
In a sense, we are making a guess until we see it in the Spirit, which is what we should ask God to do -- show us it. But, I believe absolutely in the virgin birth and that Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit. This made Jesus the only begotten Son of God ever to walk the earth and He is just flat out above us and always will be -- although we are in Him and He in us. Scripture clearly teaches that He was subordinate to the Father and yet sits on his right hand and that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Jesus is also God as the Apostle's Creed and Nicene Creed say. The whole Trinity thing will definitely give you a headache for sure. Anyway, Christ technically means 'anointed one' in Greek. In Hebrew, He is Messiah or Savior.
GerryB.
In Response To All
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 0:02
The clock has now turned past the 1:00 hour. Time for this old guy to be in bed. Thank you for the pleasant conversation. Funny how peaceful it gets when certain people don't show up.
Good night. TTYL GLW.
GerryB.
In Response To Jeanie
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:59
I told Margaret over a year ago that it is impossible for me to consider her a Christian because of her rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity, as do all Oneness Pentecostals. We have agreed to remain civil to each other despite our differences. Of course ACNR and his buddies over in the snake pit don't like the fact that I am civil to her. They also don't like the fact that I try to be civil to you or Doris. Frankly, I care not at all what men think of me. The only opinion which counts is God's.
dori
In Response To Coinky
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:56
Well, I really kind of stated that backward. Jesus was human until he became the Christ, which is to say the God manifestation. Oh heck... Gerry or Murray can explain it better.
Murray
In Response To Gerry
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:55
Well, this guy, Brother Lawrence, had a real simple relationship with God. I've been preaching a verse lately that really hits home. It's:
"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity and purity that is in Christ." (2 Cor 11:3)
I can't go into all the reasons right now, but the times I see the truth the most clearly is when it is also simple. When it gets complicated, it seems that's when there's the most room for deception.
dori
In Response To Coinky
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:46
Well, as I see it, "the Christ" refers to Jesus being God in human form. That seems to be an important distinction when having these discussions--settling on the terms we're using. LOL! Yes, that was nice of Inq-ee to send you the scripture. She is a true source of spiritual growth to me. The transformation God has made in her life is a great example for us all.
GerryB.
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:44
No, I haven't read it. I book marked the site though and when I get caught up on my other reading, I'll be happy to take a look at it. I have so much stuff that everyone has recommended to me that I'll probably be gone to be with God before I get to it all. GRIN.
Murray
In Response To Jeanie
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:40
"I don't know why you bother with me if you don't trust me to be straight with you anyway. ;)"
There's a method to my madness. ;)
*Coinkydink
In Response To Hey!
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:39
I was supposed to get off the puter 40 minutes ago! I have work to do before I go to bed...I'm finishing up a project to enter in an art show next week. TTFN
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:38
As I understand the way the word is used, it means a man who is chosen and annointed with the wisdom of god to be a special teacher or prophet or in Jesus case, to be a sacrifice so that man could be reconciled to God and freed from Judaic Law. He taught that God is a Spirit and is worshipped in spirit... and that each man is a priest in his own temple, his soul. We have all been given through Him the power to become the sons of God as he was. That's how I read it anyhow. Inqui sent me some scriptures to study on Jesus being God BTW. Wasn't that nice of her? :)
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:33
Just check back in before turning off the puter. Yes, I was "saved" at summer camp when I was 15. I was married to a Pentecostal minister and served in my church for 7 years. I rebelled against the church and Jesus when I left my husband, because he abused me. But the past 3-4 years I have returned to most of the teachings that I believed when I was in the church. They did NOT teach the trinity, but they taught ONE God and Jesus as a annointed one to give the message of God and free them from the Judaic Law. Margaret who used to post here was I think in the same kind of church. No one told her she wasn't a Christian. I don't know why you bother with me if you don't trust me to be straight with you anyway. ;)
dori
In Response To Coinky and Gerry
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:25
So, Coinky, when you speak of Jesus as being the Christ, you think that means he was just a prophet? Just what does the term "the Christ" mean to you? Seems we might be using different definitions, eh?
Gerry: Sorry you missed out on seeing little Wil, today, but tomorrow is another day, right? Hopefully he will be over to visit Grandpa tomorrow.
Murray
In Response To Jeanie
Saturday May 11, 2002 at 23:11
Have you ever realized that Jesus' sacrifice was on your behalf and have you ever been sorry for the sin that separated you from God? Is there one point in your life that you can point to as pivotal and in which you, as Fox preached, made a definitive turn from darkness to light by receiving Christ Jesus?
+++++++++++++++++++
dori
In Response To Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:37
Well, I guess it WAS another drive by... grin. Laterz
See you later, too, Murray. Enjoy your service. Time to go to din din with the kids. I'm getting the big hunk of cheesecake with raspberry sauce for dessert. It's decadent and I'll have to go to confession, but it's worth it.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:25
Considering I also took three shots to get out of one bunker (very unusual for me), I guess I played the back pretty close to regulation from tee to green. But I putted like a monkey fornicating with a football.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:24
Glad I peeked in and saw you here on my way out the door. Got a good laugh with the 'frequently' answer. I'm sure that's a common riff among golfers, of which I am not one. Anyway, I've got to get to my service. Later on...
dori
In Response To Hi Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:23
I thought you were doing another drive by... grin. I'll have to keep an eye out for Phillip Keller, too. Is there anything of his online?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:21
So, how'd you hit 'em yesterday, Jeff?
Frequently. Both Ctaj and his Evil Twin showed up. I shot 41 on the front, two-putting every green. My Evil Twin played the back nine, and had 25 putts, including a 5-putt and two 4-putts, to shoot 54 on the back. The Marquee de Sade designed those greens, extremely fast and hilly, and I [he] kept getting above the hole.
Murray
In Response To dori/Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:14
Doris, my last post was to you, although I obviously want Ron to read it.
Connie, thanks for the info. I'll keep my eye out for this guy now.
I've really got to go. My church service is at 2:30 PM. We're starting up a branch church and the pastor preaches at the main church in the morning and then this one in the afternoon. TTFN
Murray
In Response To Ron
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:11
All I can say is that Brother Lawence and Ron are very different in their writings. Isn't it true that the church teaches certain things as being a means of grace? I believe Ron is too focused on the means of grace rather than the end. The end being a focus on the love of God. Clearly, very clearly, Brother Lawrence teaches that once you are practiced in focusing on the love of God, the means that got you there basically fade away. Look at the post I just made in which Brother Lawrence, in his own way, takes a swipe at penance. I seriously don't think he would disagree that penance is spiritual kindergarten.
Connie
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:08
I think you would enjoy Phillip Keller's books too. He also stresses the simplicity and purity of Christ just as Bro Lawrence does. His little book "A Layman looks at the Love of God" explains it very well. He uses as his text 1 Corinthians 12:31-14:1 but specifically Chapter 13 the "love chapter." (cont)
dori
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:01
Thank you for the greeting, too, Murray. I read with interest your posts to Ron and I don't see you proving that Brother Lawrence was acting differently than a devout Catholic. His thoughts on confession were similar to mine. I confess to God directly, but I also go to confession a few times a year as is required of a practicing Catholic. None of the words of Brother Lawrence you posted about guilt and sin and practicing faith are opposed to Catholic teaching in any way. He is merely reflecting a more personal rapport with God than the older style Catholics had.
Murray
In Response To Ron
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 11:58
One more from Brother Lawrence before I go:
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward penance and how it can be a detriment to Christian maturity in the love of God.
"Many do not advance in the Christian progress because they stick in penances and particular exercises while they neglect the love of God, which is the end. That this appeared plainly by their works and was the reason why we see so little solid virtue.
Murray
In Response To Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 11:54
"You didn't answer my question about W. Phillip Keller."
Sure, I did. Just not "out loud." LOL Seriously, though, I don't know the name.
In re: Brother Lawrence, this guy had it going on. Do you know what I mean? I've been posting this verse a lot lately:
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity and purity that is in Christ.
That is what Brother Lawrence had. That's what we all should have.
Connie
In Response To Morning Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 11:31
I bookmarked the site you mentioned but haven't read it. I think this is the same Brother Lawrence who was a monk and worked in the kitchen, cleaning the pots and pans, and continually practiced the presence of God while doing so. You didn't answer my question about W. Phillip Keller.
Murray
In Response To RonB
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:15
More on Brother Lawrence's attitude toward sin, guilt and confession.
He said he carried no guilt.
"When I fail in my duty, I readily acknowledge it, saying, I am used to do so. I shall never do otherwise if I am left to myself. If I fail not, then I give God thanks acknowledging that it comes from Him."
Murray
In Response To RonB
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:12
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward confession in his own words.
"In continuing the practice of conversing with God throughout each day, and quickly seeking His forgiveness when I fell or strayed, His presence has become as easy and natural to me now as it once was difficult to attain."
Murray
In Response To dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:09
Let me also wish you a Happy Mother's Day, Doris. And, to all other mothers.
Murray
In Response To RonBq
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:08
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward confessing sins to man:
"Since he knew his obligation to love God in all things, and as he endeavored so to do, he had no need of a director to advise him, but that he needed much a confessor to absolve him. He said he was very sensible of his faults but not discouraged by them. He confessed them to God and made no excuses. When he had so done, he peaceably resumed his usual practice of love and adoration."
dori
In Response To Gerry
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:06
Thank you for the warm Mother's Day greeting. I hope you have an enjoyable day as well. Big hug!
Murray
In Response To RonB
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:05
RonB wrote,"Brother Lawrence had appointed hours of prayer...
This was Brother Lawrence's attitude toward them:
"With him the set times of prayer were not different from other times. He retired to pray, according to the directions of his superior, but he did not want such retirement nor ask for it because his greatest business did not divert him from God."
dori
In Response To Forum Friends
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 9:42
Good morning and God morning. Enjoy Him!
Sunny
In Response To Sim~
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 7:25
Sheee, I thought all christians spent their day mindful of the things of God and his words
One would think so! I Sure do, in fact I cannot avoid thinking of Him. If I tried, I would fail, as the "hound of heaven" would haunt me. I do not own myself & I know it, I am bought with a price, I am a slave of Christ & I am so thankful that He is uppermost in my mind, always making me self-conscious of what I am, what I can be, will be, should be & what I once was, etc. Keep in mind not all christians ARE christians. Many are so caught up with daily affairs that their minds are far from Him, while claiming to be His. I gotta crash, you, Gerry & the others have a wonderful Sunday. I am thankful to be a Mom, but my precious deceased Mom will be on my mind
GerryB.
In Response To Sim
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 7:06
I tend to do my best meditating when I'm driving and when I'm in the shower. LOL
GerryB.
In Response To Sim
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 7:01
Good morning, brother Sim.
You are so right. Just put it on when you are going to go into the Church building. Heaven forbid that you should live your faith.
Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:45
Sheee, I thought all christians spent their day mindful of the things of God and his words.
How often do you think Jesus "forgot" why he was here on earth, and we're to "conform to his image", having the mind of Christ. 1Co 2:16, Ro 8:29
I find it just as easy to work and meditate on "THE WORD", as I do to think about "worldly thing", and who's mind doesn't "wander" from their "daily task"???
I've learn more about the Bible while driving and meditating on God's word than I have while actually "Reading it".
I supppose many treat God like a "Choir Robe", they "put him on" as they enter the "Building" and pull him off, hang him up as they leave.
I bet Jesus didn't get up and say, Hey Father, I'm taking the day off, get someone else to "fill in".
GerryB.
In Response To All
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:42
Here is a very interesting site for those who are interested in the history of the Church through the ages.
http://www.gty.org/~phil/hall.htm
There is a lot of very fine reading there.
GerryB.
In Response To Moms and Grandmothers
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:36
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!!!
May you have many more.
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