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Date Posted: 17:23:44 05/13/02 Mon
Murray
In Response To Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 11:54
"You didn't answer my question about W. Phillip Keller."
Sure, I did. Just not "out loud." LOL Seriously, though, I don't know the name.
In re: Brother Lawrence, this guy had it going on. Do you know what I mean? I've been
posting this verse a lot lately:
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be
corrupted from the simplicity and purity that is in Christ.
That is what Brother Lawrence had. That's what we all should have.
Connie
In Response To Morning Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 11:31
I bookmarked the site you mentioned but haven't read it. I think this is the same Brother
Lawrence who was a monk and worked in the kitchen, cleaning the pots and pans, and
continually practiced the presence of God while doing so. You didn't answer my question
about W. Phillip Keller.
Murray
In Response To RonB
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:15
More on Brother Lawrence's attitude toward sin, guilt and confession.
He said he carried no guilt.
"When I fail in my duty, I readily acknowledge it, saying, I am used to do so. I shall never do
otherwise if I am left to myself. If I fail not, then I give God thanks acknowledging that it comes
from Him."
Murray
In Response To RonB
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:12
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward confession in his own words.
"In continuing the practice of conversing with God throughout each day, and quickly seeking
His forgiveness when I fell or strayed, His presence has become as easy and natural to me
now as it once was difficult to attain."
Murray
In Response To dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:09
Let me also wish you a Happy Mother's Day, Doris. And, to all other mothers.
Murray
In Response To RonBq
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:08
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward confessing sins to man:
"Since he knew his obligation to love God in all things, and as he endeavored so to do, he had
no need of a director to advise him, but that he needed much a confessor to absolve him. He
said he was very sensible of his faults but not discouraged by them. He confessed them to God
and made no excuses. When he had so done, he peaceably resumed his usual practice of love
and adoration."
dori
In Response To Gerry
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:06
Thank you for the warm Mother's Day greeting. I hope you have an enjoyable day as well. Big
hug!
Murray
In Response To RonB
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 10:05
RonB wrote,"Brother Lawrence had appointed hours of prayer...
This was Brother Lawrence's attitude toward them:
"With him the set times of prayer were not different from other times. He retired to pray,
according to the directions of his superior, but he did not want such retirement nor ask for it
because his greatest business did not divert him from God."
dori
In Response To Forum Friends
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 9:42
Good morning and God morning. Enjoy Him!
Sunny
In Response To Sim~
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 7:25
Sheee, I thought all christians spent their day mindful of the things of God and his words
One would think so! I Sure do, in fact I cannot avoid thinking of Him. If I tried, I would fail, as
the "hound of heaven" would haunt me. I do not own myself & I know it, I am bought with a
price, I am a slave of Christ & I am so thankful that He is uppermost in my mind, always
making me self-conscious of what I am, what I can be, will be, should be & what I once was,
etc. Keep in mind not all christians ARE christians. Many are so caught up with daily affairs
that their minds are far from Him, while claiming to be His. I gotta crash, you, Gerry & the
others have a wonderful Sunday. I am thankful to be a Mom, but my precious deceased Mom
will be on my mind
GerryB.
In Response To Sim
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 7:06
I tend to do my best meditating when I'm driving and when I'm in the shower. LOL
GerryB.
In Response To Sim
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 7:01
Good morning, brother Sim.
You are so right. Just put it on when you are going to go into the Church building. Heaven
forbid that you should live your faith.
Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:45
Sheee, I thought all christians spent their day mindful of the things of God and his words.
How often do you think Jesus "forgot" why he was here on earth, and we're to "conform to his
image", having the mind of Christ. 1Co 2:16, Ro 8:29
I find it just as easy to work and meditate on "THE WORD", as I do to think about "worldly
thing", and who's mind doesn't "wander" from their "daily task"???
I've learn more about the Bible while driving and meditating on God's word than I have while
actually "Reading it".
I supppose many treat God like a "Choir Robe", they "put him on" as they enter the "Building"
and pull him off, hang him up as they leave.
I bet Jesus didn't get up and say, Hey Father, I'm taking the day off, get someone else to "fill
in".
GerryB.
In Response To All
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:42
Here is a very interesting site for those who are interested in the history of the Church through
the ages.
http://www.gty.org/~phil/hall.htm
There is a lot of very fine reading there.
GerryB.
In Response To Moms and Grandmothers
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 6:36
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!!!
May you have many more.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Sim and Dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 19:03
I would bet that Jesus wouldn't like coffee, since it is a stimulant and he probably didn't need
stimulants. At the wedding at Cana, he provided wine, but in those days drinking wine with
food was common. Wine relaxes the stomach and helps digest foods. He likely wouldn't do
anything to excess or that was bad for his health, since he spoke of the body as a temple for
worshipping God.
dori
In Response To Ron and Sim
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 17:16
Hi Ron! So I was right about Brother Lawrence, eh? Sometimes I surprise myself... grin.
Sim: You may get a lot of things from me you don't like, but you will ALWAYS get the truth
from me. 8-)
RonB
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 16:32
All I can say is that Brother Lawence and Ron are very different in their writings.
That's because you are reading Ron's defense of the Church, while Brother Lawrence was
writing about the spiritual life. What you will find, if you read more Catholic spiritual writings, is
that Brother Lawrence sounded quite a bit like the other, better known, Catholic mystics. As I
said in another message -- he wasn't particularly unique.
Now, had you been living in Brother Lawrence's time and had attacked a point of Catholic
Doctrine, I'm guessing that Brother Lawrence would have sounded a good deal like Ron on
some points.
RonB
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 16:24
Hi Murray--
Do you understand, that as a Carmelite monk, Brother Lawrence was a member of the Church
with specific duties. That, as a Catholic monk (more so than a layman), he was obligated to
observe fast days, go to confession, pray with the other monks, go to daily Mass and all the
other things that, supposedly, are "distractions" to the spiritual life. What you've done is taken a
part of Brother Lawrence's life, the contemplative part, and tried to say that it was the sum
total. It wasn't. Not only was Brother Lawrence a Catholic in good standing with the Church,
but we was able to freely write what, you pretend, directly opposed the Church. You have
only part of the picture.
RonB
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 16:17
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward confessing sins to man:
"Since he knew his obligation to love God in all things, and as he endeavored so to do, he
had no need of a director to advise him, but that he needed much a confessor to absolve
him.
Hi Murray--
I'm guessing you don't know Catholic terminology that well. A "confessor" is a priest -- and it
is a priest that absolves sin in the Catholic Church. What Brother Lawrence is saying is that he
was in tune enough with his spiritual life to know when to confess his sins -- he did not need a
spiritual director, but he did need a confessor.
Sim 2
In Response To Dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 15:41
but I couldn't think of bringing you down like that. *-)
Well, at least we got you to "tell the truth", anyway. ROFL.
dori
In Response To Yummy!
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 15:23
The steak was so big and juicy that I had to bring half of it home and I ordered the
cheesecake to go, so that will be my treat tonight. Thanks, all you guys for offering to help me
bear the guilt of my sinfulness, but I couldn't think of bringing you down like that. *-)
Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 14:17
I've had my "drive by" pop shot, time to shot at something else.
SYL GLW.
Sim 2
In Response To ctaj
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 14:01
How do you know Jesus doesn't like Coffee, and I don't know how he like it, he and I drink
from the same cup.
can ye drink of the cup that I drink of?
Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of;
Like I said, it quickly become apparent, who does/doesn't know him.
Connie
In Response To Ctaj
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 13:47
Your post conveniently (as usual) leaves out the first word "If."
`Ctaj
In Response To Sim 2
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 13:14
Good example of how preposterously presumptuous you are. There's no way for you to know
if Jesus even liked coffee.
Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 13:11
If Jesus sent you after a cup of coffee for him, do you know him well enough that you wouldn't
have to ask if he wanted "cream and sugar".
When you "associate" with someone long enough you learn things about them that is only
revealed through your association.
If I said I knew your "spouse", whom you'd been married too for "forty years", then attempted
to describe things about them that you know from your association "wasn't true" you would
quickly recognize that I didn't "really" know them.
I find the same to be true for many Christian when attempting to describe Jesus.
You can't "SEE" the "DIRT" of the flesh (sin) until you "SEE" the "HOLYNESS" of God.
Sim 2
In Response To Dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 13:00
I'm getting the big hunk of cheesecake with raspberry sauce for dessert. It's decadent and I'll
have to go to confession, but it's worth it.
Give it to me and I'll confess enough for both of us, but there might not be much "repentance"
in my words or heart. LOL
Connie
In Response To Murray/Dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:55
Sorry, I got detoured. My family wanted to take me out for brunch or dinner too but I decided
I'd rather have a barbeque here at home so I had to give everyone their orders...grin! Decided
to smoke some ribs...yummy! Will tell you more about Keller later...he is so good. In the book
I mentioned earlier, he starts by saying to know the love of God you have to know and
understand the character of Christ first. More later.
`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:51
I'm getting the big hunk of cheesecake with raspberry sauce for dessert. It's decadent and
I'll have to go to confession, but it's worth it.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while confession may be good for the soul, it doesn't
do squat for hips.
dori
In Response To Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:37
Well, I guess it WAS another drive by... grin. Laterz
See you later, too, Murray. Enjoy your service. Time to go to din din with the kids. I'm getting
the big hunk of cheesecake with raspberry sauce for dessert. It's decadent and I'll have to go
to confession, but it's worth it.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:25
Considering I also took three shots to get out of one bunker (very unusual for me), I guess I
played the back pretty close to regulation from tee to green. But I putted like a monkey
fornicating with a football.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:24
Glad I peeked in and saw you here on my way out the door. Got a good laugh with the
'frequently' answer. I'm sure that's a common riff among golfers, of which I am not one.
Anyway, I've got to get to my service. Later on...
dori
In Response To Hi Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:23
I thought you were doing another drive by... grin. I'll have to keep an eye out for Phillip Keller,
too. Is there anything of his online?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:21
So, how'd you hit 'em yesterday, Jeff?
Frequently. Both Ctaj and his Evil Twin showed up. I shot 41 on the front, two-putting every
green. My Evil Twin played the back nine, and had 25 putts, including a 5-putt and two
4-putts, to shoot 54 on the back. The Marquee de Sade designed those greens, extremely fast
and hilly, and I [he] kept getting above the hole.
Murray
In Response To dori/Connie
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:14
Doris, my last post was to you, although I obviously want Ron to read it.
Connie, thanks for the info. I'll keep my eye out for this guy now.
I've really got to go. My church service is at 2:30 PM. We're starting up a branch church and
the pastor preaches at the main church in the morning and then this one in the afternoon. TTFN
Murray
In Response To Ron
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:11
All I can say is that Brother Lawence and Ron are very different in their writings. Isn't it true
that the church teaches certain things as being a means of grace? I believe Ron is too focused
on the means of grace rather than the end. The end being a focus on the love of God. Clearly,
very clearly, Brother Lawrence teaches that once you are practiced in focusing on the love of
God, the means that got you there basically fade away. Look at the post I just made in which
Brother Lawrence, in his own way, takes a swipe at penance. I seriously don't think he would
disagree that penance is spiritual kindergarten.
Connie
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:08
I think you would enjoy Phillip Keller's books too. He also stresses the simplicity and purity of
Christ just as Bro Lawrence does. His little book "A Layman looks at the Love of God"
explains it very well. He uses as his text 1 Corinthians 12:31-14:1 but specifically Chapter 13
the "love chapter." (cont)
dori
In Response To Murray
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 12:01
Thank you for the greeting, too, Murray. I read with interest your posts to Ron and I don't see
you proving that Brother Lawrence was acting differently than a devout Catholic. His thoughts
on confession were similar to mine. I confess to God directly, but I also go to confession a few
times a year as is required of a practicing Catholic. None of the words of Brother Lawrence
you posted about guilt and sin and practicing faith are opposed to Catholic teaching in any
way. He is merely reflecting a more personal rapport with God than the older style Catholics
had.
Murray
In Response To Ron
Sunday May 12, 2002 at 11:58
One more from Brother Lawrence before I go:
Brother Lawrence's attitude toward penance and how it can be a detriment to Christian
maturity in the love of God.
"Many do not advance in the Christian progress because they stick in penances and particular
exercises while they neglect the love of God, which is the end. That this appeared plainly by
their works and was the reason why we see so little solid virtue.
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