Re: I met Christ -- RSQUBF discussion forum

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, [2], 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 19:17:14 02/01/05 Tue
Author: Chris
Subject: Re: I met Christ
In reply to: UBF "second gen" 's message, "I met Christ" on 17:13:12 02/01/05 Tue

I do have to admit that there were a lot of strange, shameless things going on when DSL was leading UBF.

I am waiting for the day when your "church" will publicly admit this. But in all official statements, it sounds completely different.

go back to the story about my friend and the opportunity that was lost to recieve Christ because of you

This opportunity was lost because of UBF decided to be a cult and inaccountable. If UBF would be accountable, reform itself and openly admit their problems, repent and change, then UBF would not be considered a cult and people would not warn of UBF. Because you associate with a cult, you have troubles and will always have troubles inviting people. It's up to you and to UBF. Don't blame those who reveal the problems, blame those who caused the problems and refuse to do anything about it.

People in UBF have indeed made mistakes, but it is our sinful nature.

Question to you: Is this all a Christian can say about making mistakes? "It is our sinful nature?" What about things like repentance, apology and correcting mistakes?

Again: As long as UBF top leadership has not publicly showed remorse, admitted the many wrongdoings including forced abortions and divorces, as long as they do not show true repentance and issue a written statement about how they will prevent spiritual abuse in the future, so long UBF will be rightfully considered a cult. If the latter hinders people to believe in God, then UBF has to be blamed for it, not UBF critics.

Do you guys believe in JEsus? THen act as Jesus would. It's not easy. Our emotions get us carried away. But Jesus was tortured and crucified, and he was silent.

Do you guy believe in Jesus? Then act as Jesus did. Read in Mt 23 how he challenged the Pharisees of the kind which are now leaders in UBF. The bottom message of the gospel is not "be silent" as UBF made you believe and you want to make us believe.

If there is injustice or if church leaders do not act according to the truth, we have to speak up. Read in the Bible how John the Baptist challenged Herod. Read how Apostle Paul even challenged the Apostle Peter. Read in the Bible how Paul challenged all those who brought false practices and teachings into the church, even if they were "Super-Apostles." He was not simply silent because he did not want anybody to stumble.

All churches have imperfections; there are no perfect churches because people are sinners, and yes, leaders are sinners.

We have heard this a thousand times, but it is only half of the truth. A church that does not strive for holiness and truth and perfection has stopped being a church. A church that has stopped to repent has stopped being a real church. Mike has already pointed out that Jesus requires the Christians and the church as thus to be holy and perfect (Phil 2:15, Eph 5:27, Col 1:22, 1Peter 1:16, Mt 5:48, Phil 3:12, 1Cor 5:7, the Bible is full of this). "Nobody is perfect" is no excuse before God. The only Christian way to deal with imperfections is to repent and to do everything as possible to change grievances in the church, not by ignoring them as a necessarily evil.

The problem of the churches which are rebuked in Revelation was not that they made mistakes, their main challenge was whether they repented or not. Their light was not taken away because they made mistakes, but because they did not want to repent for these mistakes and change.

Paul would answer to people like you: "Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?"

Back to the problem with your friend. You are right that it is a serious problem when Christians make young believers stumble in faith.

Let me quote Jesus from Lk 17:1-2: Jesus said to his disciples: �Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.

What kind of things are these that may cause people to sin? The original Greek version of the Bible and the Latin vulgata both have here the word "skandala", from which the English word "scandals" is derived. What are the real scandals that make UBF attendants stumble? It is the spiritual abuse, inaccountability in all realms and the behavior of UBF leaders who do not repent. People like Peter Chang in Bonn who called himself God and established a personality cult are still not only tolerated in UBF, but praised. That is a scandal. And that's what people really make stumble. I saw so many people in my chapter stumble over spiritual abuse, and heard about the same problems from everywhere in UBF. The verse says "woe to that person through whom they (the skandala) come", not to that person who reveals these things. You are confusing two things.

The solution for UBF leaders would be so easy and cheap: Come out and deal frankly with these issues. But in their pride they rather continue in their old ways, call people who want to reform "rebels" and rather make little one stumble than getting over their hard-necked pride.

If you continue to read the above Bible passage, the same verse that has been the conclusion "So watch yourselfs" continues like this: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." That's actually all that is done by us. We rebuke UBF leaders for their inaccountable behavior and committing spiritual abuse with unbiblical teachings and practices. So far they have not shown any signs of repentance. So there is no reason for us to forgive them, but we should continue to speak out about this abuse.

What can you do to improve the situation? Challenge your leaders about being accountable. Let Sarah Barry and other leaders answer the 16 questions we had asked 3 years ago. Ask them whether they still consider reformers "rebels". If you see them evading answers and no repentance, you know that it is time to leave such a group. If evildoers cannot be tolerated as rank and file members (read 1 Cor 5) how much less can evildoers be tolerated as leaders? If there is no way for you to lead them to repentance, the only possibility for you is to leave. If you and your fellow JBFers will dissociate from UBF and instead associate with healthy churches, you would have no problems of the kind you reported. It is up to you. As long as you associate with cult leaders, you will be criticized, and if as a cause this leads your friends to stumble, then your not disassociating with the cult and the cult itself is accountable for that. Don't blame others.

I made my point at full length in the hope you understood the problem. I do not want to offend you. Sorry I still cannot sugar-coat my postings so well as Tony requires, and I am a little bit tired. I am just trying to give a frank and direct answer.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Shut up and live with it or Speak up and die for it -- Mike K., 03:30:15 02/02/05 Wed
Re: I met Christ -- Tony Lang, 07:55:19 02/02/05 Wed