Date Posted:18:26:25 02/15/05 Tue Author: PECAS Subject: Response to your examples In reply to:
ubf member
's message, "Re: questions" on 20:12:22 02/14/05 Mon
UBF member, I am happy that you have provided some examples of change. You may be the first to do so. I hope that you did not leave this forum permanently and will post again in the future. I would like to comment on your examples of change.
Examples: 1) one Abraham of faith type shepherd in one chicago campus marries a woman of his choice, who is outside of ubf. The fellowship leader officiates the wedding and blesses them. No intervention by elders or ubf figureheads.
I know an eighteen year UBF veteran who married a woman outside of UBF almost fifteen years ago. The wedding was not at a UBF center, but was attended by UBF members. Thus, I would not consider this example a change. First, this has happened in UBF many years before. Second, the ancestor of faith type person may be an exception rather than the rule.
2) Two committed ubf members decide to marry each other. No intervention by elders and figure heads. Fellowship leader blesses and officiates.
3) My brother a "ubf shepherd" asks about another shepherdess. His shepherd prays with him and tries to arrange something. No intervention or excommunication.
I am concerned about the "asks about" phrase. What if the shepherd says no? Then what? Also, the shepherd is arranging something. I will comment more about this regarding your sixth example, but based on my almost eight years experience in UBF, the shepherd seems to have total control. Giving adivce or even attempting to be a go-between to help two people come together can be very good. Nevertheless, if the shepherd has to approve who his sheep dates, the environment is still encouraging systematic obedience training that I discuss at http://voy.com/60734/4/8594.html.
4) known happenings of "courting" relationships (one of which includes my best friend) occur. Individuals are prayed for and not coaxed or reprimanded.
Good.
5) my shepherd (a very famous ubf figurehead) teaches me in Bible study that he believes in Christian dating with the intent of marriage
Believing it and encouraging it within his ministry are two different things. In addition, if the chapter director, fellowship leader, and individual shepherds must approve a couple before dating, there is still an issue of control, manipulation, and expectation of absolute obedience.
6) young american shepherd that is also a fellowship leader asks to extend his engagement with his fiance (whom he chose) for a longer period of time because he would like to "get to know her", resembling a Christian dating type relationship.
I am concerned about the 'asks to extend his engagement' statement. Should not the wedding date be between the two people getting married and not be decided by a third party, even a church leader. What if the chapter director refused? What would happend then? The chapter director had no problem extending the engagement as long as it was clear that HE was extending it, HE was deciding the wedding date and the couple was obeying. The couple obeyed their shepherd who permitted the extention. This still appears to be systematic obedience training, that permeats UBF. If the chapter director thought the couple was not obedient, he would have likely tested them by giving them a direction he knew they would not want. The chapter director's main priority is that this couple submit to him after marriage.
This list of changes still indicates that UBF members must absolutely obey their shepherd(s)when they court or date within or out of UBF. The requirement that the sheep must absolutely obey his shepherd and requires the approval of the shepherd before making any serious decisions is one change that must be made before UBF can truly reform from the past abuse.
