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Date Posted: 13:03:57 11/25/04 Thu
Author: Chris
Subject: Answers
In reply to: A Christian Man 's message, "Re: Your thoughts" on 11:11:25 11/25/04 Thu

but I am a member of the Body of Christ. And it seem as though people like "Chris" refuse to believe me even on this.

Where did I say anything like this? I don't even know your name. I just commented what you have written, and what seems ot stem from a wrong understanding of forgiveness and sin and a lack of awareness of the seriousness of the problems of UBF, both on the level of personal sins of its leaders and systemic errors of UBF (both is tightly connected). This does not mean that you are not a Christian.

SO my question is this, if you do not accept my sincere apology on behalf of my brothers, why dont you write down an exhaustive list of the people whom you would like to see repent for specific sins and grievances against you?

Most of us already got over the abuse we experienced ourselves. It is again a common misunderstanding that it is only about personal problems and hurt of a few people who write here. No, the problem is much greater than that. It is a systemic problem of UBF, not only a problem of certain leaders. This problem exists already for 40 years (see , and no leader has ever repented or apologized. And no, you cannot do this on behalf of them. They have to repent themselves.

Second, why make a long list, when not even the top leader would answer us? Please talk to Sarah Barry and let her answer our 16 questions, and we will have made one step forward.

Are you saying that Jesus has not forgiven Sarah Barry, or Ron Ward, or Ben Toh? Or that they are not believers in Christ? And if you are, then are you not pronouncing judgement on them yourself?

Every Christian is allowed and even obliged to judge whether the deeds of the members and leaders of his church are Christian or not. This kind of judgement is different from the kind of judgement that Jesus will exert when He comes back. All we are saying is that the people you are mentioning do not behave like Christians, because they do not repent, because they cover up grievances and sins of leaders, because they teach and practice unbiblical authoritarism and shepherding/discipling/covering, and because they are not willing to change obvious wrongs in their church. And Mike is right that Jesus does not forgive everybody who claim to believe in him and even claim to be his "servants." Jesus said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7) And what is the will of His Father in heaven? In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. (Acts 7). As Mike said, without repentance, there is no forgiveness. And while Jesus may overlook many sins of people who don't know the Bible so well, He will surely not overlook the sins of self-acclaimed authoritarian leaders who claim to be Bible teachers. "You know that we who teach will be judged more strictly". (Jam 3) I can only repeat and summarize what Mike said. We can not and do not want to condemn these people, but we can point out one very simple spiritual legality: Forgiveness of sins requires repentance: "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out" (Acts 3). Why do you think Jesus will forgive a leader who is not willing to repent, to apologize and to change if grievances are so obvious as in UBF? Who is Jesus for you? Why did He have to die if things can be so easily forgiven and covered up? God is love and forgiveness, but He is also just and holy. And as He is holy, he requires His church to be holy. If the church is not willing at least to strive for that goal and repent every day, it has stopped being His church. Did you ever read what Jesus said to his church in Ephesus? Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Do you think a different standard applies to UBF? Also, did you ever read Mt 18? What did Jesus say about somebody who calls himself "brother," but is not willing to repent? Did He teach us that we should simply forgive such a person and continue to treat him as a brother, or should we rather treat him as we would treat a pagan or a tax collector. (Which does not mean, by the way, that we would treat him badly or hate him, as you immediately seem to conclude.)

WOuld you like them to stop one to one Bible study?

As long as they do not solve their own problems before God and as long as they do not return to proper, sound and sane Biblical teachings, yes. You know that their "Bible study" contains is in reality "UBF doctrine study." For example in the Bible study they teach their unbiblical understanding of "spiritual order," they teach arranged marriage and many other unbiblical things (see thread on doctrine). Yes, they should first repent, second apologize, third return to proper Biblical doctrine. Then they may engage in studying the Bible with others.

Would you like them to stop being authoritarian?

Yes. We would like them to understand that authoritarism is not Biblical, repent for that and stop practicing and teaching it.

And if so, how would you know if they had?

Very easy, first from what they say (admit, confess their sind, repent and apologize to everybody) and second from what they do (real change in heart and deeds). Real repentance is always visible.

I can give you an example of one Korean UBF missionary who was the oldest and probably the most authoritarian in our chapter. I could give you several examples of his bad behavior (which was all tolerated by our chapter leader), but I will not do this, because a few years ago, he repented and renounced from these ways. He apologized for the way he had treated me in the past. He went to a Bible seminary and I can see him struggling to correct his former errors, both in his behavior and his sincere attempt to understand what was wrong with him and his UBFic theology. Believe me, it is very, very easy to see. He is a completely different person now. He speaks honestly, does not try to defend himself, he is mercyful to others, he is very humble. Though he had treated me very badly at one point in time, I now consider him one of my best friends, and I have nearly forgotten about that incident. I never think of it and I bear no grudge against him whatsoever.

Another example are the "Fort Lauderdale 5 shepherds" (see here or the recent apology of ICC leaders (here, for example). I haven't seen anything like that from the side of UBF leaders. They are the most unrepentant people I have ever met in my life.

And, by the way, I have seen many who tried to change UBF from inside, and I have tried it, too. It is not that we simply left without trying to do something or speaking with the responsible persons. Do you know what my shepherdess, the leader's wife, answered me when I told her I was praying for reform? "You can wait for reform until we all are buried." That was the point where I recognized it was not worth staying. (But it was only one of many reasons I stopped trying to reform from withing and left. I knew that if I would stay any longer, this would be like engaging in dramatics, or I would become corrupt.) You are now in a stage in which we have been, too.

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