Answered, but what are the ramifications? -- RSQUBF discussion forum

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Date Posted: 15:13:05 10/11/04 Mon
Author: UBFree/Shane Cain
Subject: Answered, but what are the ramifications?
In reply to: Brian Karcher 's message, "Already answered" on 13:33:31 10/11/04 Mon

Hello Brian,

Since Iam identifying specific people in UBF, I feel it only fair that I reveal my own identity. My name is Shane Cain, I was in the LA UBF from 1989-1997. I came to know the UBF system quite well. I was an intern shepherd from 1993-1997. I am quite aware of UBF beleifs and practices. And Brian, I must say it is not the rosey picture you have presented on this website.

You mentioned that "you would not speak like this" referring to John Kwon's statement about "obey me like you obey God". Let me add context to his statement. In our conversation, John Kwon fully and aggressivly beleived in the idea of "obey me like you obey God." In otherwords your "shepherd" will decide such things as: where you live, your major, who you marry, when you can see your family members, when you can go on vacation and how long, etc. Every major decision on your life(and even minor ones) is given over to your "shepherd". Not only did John Kwon NOT deny that UBF was based on pyramid structure, he aggresivly ADVOCATED it as the biblical basis for church structure.
Brian, I am telling you the truth, I am not lying! The "shepherds" in LA asked John the following question: "what if UBF asks us to do something agaisnt our conscience?" John's answer was thus, "Absolutely obey your shepherd despite you conscience." He said "Let the curse fall on me(John Kwon). In otherwords, even if you go agaisnt your conscience, and even if you sin, God will not hold you accountable because you were obeying your "shepherd." This is called the doctrine of "covering".

Brian, I found this doctrine to be taught in every UBF I visited. Even in Korea, where I stayed and taught for one year. I am telling you as a witness to everything I have heard and seen in UBF.

Brian, what are the ramifications of such a church based on absolute obediance to man and the doctrine of "covering". I can list some ramifications but I would rather read your reply first.

>>So, coming back to the original question, rel=nofollow target=_blank >>href="http://www.voy.com/60734/8395.html">original
>>question raised by UBFree, you would agree that
>>missionary John Kwon of the LA held an unbiblcal view
>>when he demanded of his sheep "Obey me like you Obey
>>God."?
>
>Round and round we go... This will be my last post for
>now. As you can see, I already answered the original
>question. Chris, you now raise a modified version of
>the original question. I will answer both below.
>
>Original Question: "Do you believe that this is a
>biblical command?"
>
>Original Answer: "This wording is not found in the
>Bible."
>
>Clarification for Chris:
>
>No, the command "Obey me like you Obey God" is not
>found in the Bible, so we cannot consider it a
>Biblical command. So we are not required to obey human
>leaders exactly as we obey God. If a human leader
>tells us to do something that violates Scripture or
>God's will, we are not required to obey that leader.
>
>The issue of obedience to leaders, however, is
>important to consider.
>
>It is a Biblical *command* to obey leaders. Hebrews
>13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their
>authority. They keep watch over you as men who must
>give an account. Obey them so that their work will be
>a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage
>to you."
>
>It is a Biblical *principle* to welcome a leader as if
>they were an angel of God or even God himself. Some
>people welcomed Apostle Paul as if he were Jesus
>Christ himself. Galatians 4:14 says, "Even though my
>illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with
>contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I
>were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus
>himself."
>
>Now for Chris' new question, which was not asked by
>UBFree: "you would agree that missionary John Kwon of
>the LA held an unbiblcal view when he demanded of his
>sheep "Obey me like you Obey God."?
>
>Answer: No, in my opinion, I do not think M.John Kwon
>had an unBiblical view. In my opinion, though, I do
>not consider it a good practice to speak this way.
>
>Immanuel,
>Brian.
>
>">Brian,
>">
>">My "Shepherd", missionary John Kwon of the LA ubf
>once
>">said to me. "Obey me like you Obey God." Do you
>">believe that this is a biblical command?
>"
>"This wording is not found in the Bible."

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Replies:

Re: Answered, but what are the ramifications? -- former, 15:16:51 10/11/04 Mon
Re: finally answered -- Joe, 16:55:51 10/11/04 Mon
- Re: finally answered -- Joe, 17:12:22 10/11/04 Mon
  - Skewed view -- Mike K., 07:19:56 10/12/04 Tue
Re: Answered, but what are the ramifications? -- Chris, 01:29:10 10/12/04 Tue