| Subject: Okay, Mercedes, if what you're saying is just plain the TRUTH, then anybody knowledgeable who disagrees is just TELLING LIES. Right? Now, tell me, why should anyone listen to them, and why should they be given an outlet (free speech) to tell their lies? Explain without mere platitude. |
Author:
obitchecker
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Date Posted: Thu, March 26, 2009 5:50:37
In reply to:
Mercedes
's message, "Hey Everyone! Message for Obitchecker..." on Sun, March 22, 2009 8:21:54
Just to give one example among many. There are many economists who argue that what put us in the mess we are in now was the loosening up of the standards for loans for home ownership (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac).
Are they just "liars", Mercedes. Tell me. Is it their honest considered opinion, or are they just LIARS? Or are they just STUPID, and are you so much SMARTER than they are? Do you have PERFECT intelligence?
If they are just "liars", explain why they should thus be allowed free speech. After all, because they have so much POWER they have too much ability to influence people with their LIES. So, while you may say you support free speech for them too because if they don't have it, you don't have it, how long do you really think this weak argument for the principle will last once the argument is made that LIES must be restricted because the people who tell them are too powerful and against them the TRUTH has no chance? Or some argument like this.
I know, in a world where good intentions always led to good results, lowering the standards for loans could not possibly cause economic chaos, or be a factor in it. But the real world doesn't work so neatly. Sad to say, but it's true, good intentions can lead to bad results, as much as we all would rather it was not so.
I never said that you advocated assassination. I have known many who have. That the only reason you give for not doing so yourself is that "it would make martyrs of them....", however, is disturbing. I have seen the UGLY side of the left as well as the right, and I will not get sucked into it, no matter how much either side tries to convince me that their side is the one source of TRUTH, which later becomes so rigid that anyone who offers any dissent from this TRUTH is branded a "sellout" and a traitor. My parents were raised under a fundamentalist religion which held to this doctrine, my older siblings subscribed to political ideas which in time sounded just as rigidly dichotomist in the opposite end. So I have lived out my life squeezed between two influences of extreme "us versus them" ways of thinking, and I want no part of either one.
I believe Bush DID do many things wrong. I never voted for him. It is most likely, however, that when history is all sorted out years from now, the consensus will be that he did a mixture of things right and wrong. The same will probably be said for Clinton. And Obama. To varying degrees, to be sure.
I reiterate: Free speech will NOT last unless it is generally understood that the reason it must be allowed is not just because "if we can take away theirs, they can take away ours", but also because it is always possible that THEY might be right and YOU may be wrong. A culture that does not appreciate this will not last as a free society. One can feel very strongly that they are right, but without at least acknowledging the possibility that they are wrong, the foundations for free speech are not appreciated and are as flimsy as the platform of whatever group is in power claiming that they are all "truth" and the other side all "lies" and that this is what justifies free speech for one side only. The justifications given for restricting free speech in times of war (and yes, this has been done in all wars, even by Lincoln and Roosevelt)will be extended to politics when politics IS seen as war. As it already seems to be to many people.
Again, Mercedes, a question I've asked: are you willing to admit that you just may turn out to be wrong about anything in politics which you feel very strongly about? And that Republicans may turn out to be right about anything?
Are people who disagree with you all liars, or stupid, or ignorant?
Do you see politics as war?
For instance...you describe yourself as pro-life. Do you disagree with any of the Democratic party's positions related to abortion? Or do you refuse to take any actual policy positions different from theirs because you don't want to take any of the same positions as Republicans on anything? (Perhaps you've already stated this in posts previous; if so, sorry that I didn't catch them).
I DO think you are a very good person, Mercedes, as are most others here. I just think you are getting sucked into a whirlpool with this "us versus them" thinking, and I say that because I have seen the same happen to my brother and sister, who are also good people in general. As were my parents and others who were in their church, but the rigid religious dogma sucked many of them into a whirlpool as well. I could say much more about how I came to the position I have, but that is a much longer story.
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