"Should the reformed UBF be a church" & "What's up, doc?" (1 of 2) -- RSQUBF Discussion Boards 2001 highlights

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Date Posted: 23:40:37 10/03/02 Thu
Author: rsqarchive
Subject: "Should the reformed UBF be a church" & "What's up, doc?" (1 of 2)

Thread Subject: "Should the reformed UBF be a church" & "What's up, doc?"

from reformubf

Should the reformed UBF be a church?

Posted by Theologian on February 22, 2001 at 17:10:41:

Hi, I write to you as a person who left UBF some time ago, but still knows people in the church, and knows many people who have left it wounded and manipulated.

There are many problems in UBF now, but there are also many problems I can still clearly see in the reformers. To be quite honest with you UBF is a cult, in the sense that it has its own distinct culture which is seperated from the rest of Christianity. There are many reasons for this sub-culture, many of them because of the old Korean Confucianistic principles which run so deeply through the organization and its members.

I'll be honest, most of you reformers still sound brainwashed. You still think, talk, and act like UBF members in many ways. You do not know it but you are still decieved. You have been in a cult for ten or thirty years, how can you be so arrogant to assume that now you are a healthy Christian!

My declaration, as a Christian, is that UBF does not deserve to be a church. You people sold out students for years in order to follow the UBF system, and now you shouldn't have the right to do this anymore.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Ubf needs to stop having a Sunday Worship service. The members should start attending other churches (of their own choice) on Sunday. You can still get to gether and have meetings on Wednesdays, and if you must continue to blaspheme God by teaching your faith of works, legalism, and confucianism, stop maniipulating members to come to the UBF church (which is really no church at all) on Sundays and encourage them to attend good churches with their friends and/or family.

My questions to reformers:
1. Do you think that UBF deserves to hold Sunday services in spite of its sins? If so explain why.

2. Do you know anything about the Navigators or IVCF? Do you know why they do not manipulate students into comming to their church?

I hope this does not sound hateful, but you do need a stern rebuke. Put away fleshly pride and humble yourselves before God.

2/23/2001

UBF member

Re: Should the reformed UBF be a church?

You are right, unreformed UBF should stop having Sunday services. But in a reformed UBF with the problematic issues "fixed", I see no problem in it. On the contrary, I'm dreaming of a reformed UBF as a student church which is "his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all". But of course, it has to be reformed completely.

You already mentioned some problematic issues:
- authoritary structure
- legalism and confucianism
- spiritual abuse
(manipulating and tricking members,
arranged marriages,
destroy loving relationships,
brainwash members to follow a single doctrine,
punish or banish people for independent thought)
- Calling others shepherd or missionary
- "Number spirit" (bible studies, fishing, etc.)
- testimonies ("sogams") and 1:1 bible study in UBF fashion
as "the only way" in a life of faith or as a kind of sacrament
- faith of works
- etc.

I will add three more points which are essential if UBF wants to become a student church.
1) Sunday worship service should be free for everyone to attend or not. Of course students should be encouraged to visit a Sunday worship service, but they should free to decide whether at UBF, at another church they like, or alternately, and when as often they like visit Sunday worship service with their parents at home. Everybody should be free to attend or not (e.g. if his/her conscience says that there is something more important at one sunday, help an ill person or the like).
2) Up to now everybody expected to stay in UBF his whole life. I never saw people leaving and going to other churches without problems, i.e. either they were disappointed of UBF or wounded or they were kicked out. This is horrible. It should become a normal process, that members think about and maybe decide to go to other churches, especially after they are born again and after finishing their "student life". It may be a good idea to devote your life to students in a student church, even if you aren't a student any more, but it may be as well or better to go to a completely different ministry. Such a change should even be very much encouraged if it is evident what God wants and where one is called to go. There should exist many good relations to other churches and ministries, so UBF can even recommend and procure churches or ministries to go to.
3) There should be a good and close relationship, coworking and prayer meetings with all other local student churches.

I'm dreaming of such a reformed UBF. Sometimes I had a smell of it in the existing UBF, although everything was under the dark shade of the LeeBF spiritual abusing system.

2/23/2001

Anonymous

Re: Should the reformed UBF be a church?

Gee, I don't know how to answer your questions. I have been in UBF for a long time and left because of one critical reason, that is the authoritarian leadership which I felt had been intensifying, at least in our chapter. Authoritarian leadership is the greatest sign of a cult. If that is fixed then all other smaller problems will be taken care of.

I think the unreformed UBF chapters should quit having SWS because of their moral failure to address the the serious problem in UBF. I think the unreformed chapters and leaders have lost all credibility because they have closed their eyes and have remained silent and have even lied publically to protect SL.

Reformed UBF should by all means establish Sunday worship services based on God's word and Biblical teaching.

Concerning manipulation, in our chapter this did not occur. People were simply invited, but I don't recall people being pressured or tricked. But I agree that this should not be done.

I would prefer not to throw out UBF completely. I think it has been a blessing to many. I would really like to see it reformed.

I believe in grace too much, so I think forgiveness, hope and foresight must be the watch words. But as I said, the key is halting the authoritarian leadership. That is the critical problem. Once it becomes more democratic and willing to allow itself to be criticized in light of the Bible, then it will grow more.

2/23/2001

KJ68

Re: Should the reformed UBF be a church?

If you've read the reform documents (which I don't think you have) you would know that those seeking reform have repented the practices and fallible cultural foundations of UBF and have committed themselves to solve the very problems which you decry. If you have read the reform documents, I can only believe that you just have a hard time trusting Koreans. Of course, we shouldn't make the mistake of trusting people too much, but as a current member of UBF who has been in his share of churches outside of UBF, I can tell you that those calling for reform are genuine Christians. You should at least trust the work of the Holy Spirit in them. Reformed UBF members shouldn't be allowed to worship together because of past organizational sins? Where do you get such an idea? Why don't the Navigators or IVCF not manipulate students into coming to their church? Because they don't have this obsession with success and numbers that Samuel Lee has made part of UBF. Where have the reformers said that they would continue such
corrupt and manipulative practices? They repudiate such practices. In spite of what I've written here, I agree that healthy skepticism like yours is needed to keep people in check. A reformed UBF should seriously listen to the concerns of people like you and be willing to be constantly reform itself as the Lord leads. In that way, a reformed UBF should be completely different from the current UBF.

2/23/2001

Theologian

Doctrine

KJ68,

I don't think we are in total dissagreement, so I thought I might add some more insights on UBF doctrine and its members.

1. I am working from the basis that UBF is a cult; that is a sub-culture distinct and seperate from Christendom.

2. UBF members are brainwashed. They have read and recited the writings of, praised, and imitated one man, Samuel Lee, for many years. They are not even aware of how much he has shaped the world view they have, and how corrupt that man is.

In my opinion UBF is not a church, but more like an anti-church. They have replaced grace with legalism, genuine Christian love has been replaced by favoritism and love bombing, the Holy Spirit has been replaced by the voice of men, Jesus is no longer the most important shepherd but each person's appointed shepherd, and on and on and on.

UBF people do not deserve to have a church because they are fundamentally corrupt and abused people. As the phrase goes "Hurt people hurt people." You might say but there are genuinly good people in UBF, but there are good people in every religious institution in the world, that doesn't mean they are born again.

You might say "Let the Spirit do its work." UBF people have blasphemed the Holy Spirit for years. Look at the way corrupt Korean and American Peons disregarded God's voice and listened to a silly looking man. They don't have a clue how to listen to the Spirit at this point.

Here is another question: How many UBF missionaries do you believe are truly born again, or were they just pressured to make a "decision by faith." Maybe thats harsh, but how about this one "How many do you actually believe were called by God to be missionaries and Bible teachers." or were they just pressured to "commit by faith?"

Don't forget that the Word in James says not many of you should consider yourselves teachers, and yet everyone in UBF is miraculously a self proclaimed Bible teacher and life coach (shepherd) This is Blasphemy.

I can see that many of you do not want to "throw the baby out with the bath water" but what I'm saying is that reformers need time, years to recover from this deep spiritual corruption. They need time to cry on other Christians shoulders and seek Professional counceling from real Christians. They can't just say I've repented everything is perfect now, nice try. Remember Bill Clinton repented too, how much does that mean he has really changed?

They need time to get back into the real Christian world. If UBF needs to go on keep it as its name says a Bible study fellowship, and don't pretend its a church.

2/23/2001

Doc [Archiver's note: Oh, what a treat!]

Re: Doctrine

Jesus and his 12 disciples is a cult.
Have you seen Jesus authority over his disciples and his rebuke.He even called peter Satan! americans will have a problem with that. Or let us say Paul to Timothy.
I use to be in UBF I am now a physician and seen some problem with kids in america with their drug culture and addiction to food and gambling and lustful desires.
Let me tell you behavioral medicines and psychopharmacology will not help this people. Strong authoritarian church like UBF with strong peer pressures can help.
Call it brainwashing but this is
more helpful than what medical profession can offer. I have read
alot of the arguments in this board and ubf reform the bottom line is what is the treatment for young peoples dependency problem.
I believe the reform did some good though first, there is no longer abortion in UBF. 2nd the treasurer is no longer Mrs SL but Maria Ahns. Although msl has not publicly repented he made some changes. If you compare to Jim baker or Jimmy Swaggart I feel he is far better. Not everyone can last in UBF and that may not be the point. Each one who left has some good memories and good experience if not had some good changes in their life. People can make mistakes you know.

DOC

2/27/2001

b>Sibboleth

Re: Doctrine

Actually, the bottom line is helping young people come to Jesus and experience eternal life here and now and in the future. Believe it or not, young Americans are not only finding salvation but healing for their dependency problems and other problems in American churches. And these American churches don't resort to UBF-style abuse and "brainwashing" as you put it.
Unfortunately, contrary to your belief, UBF has a spotty record at best when it comes to helping people with dependency problems. An infamous "shepherd" in Beh Toh's fellowship has had a drinking problem for years. One of Joseph Chung's sheep occasionally attends the worship service looking like a total wreck from years of drinking. One of Ron Ward's sheep disappears for weeks at a time due to a drug problem. These are tragic people, and I'm sure their shepherds pray for them. But equally tragic is that these substance abusers are brought only to pad the Sunday worship service numbers. As long as they're sober on Sunday, it's okay. Joseph Chung's sheep shows up at the service in exchange for doctor's notes, so he can stay home from work when he's too hung over. Some might argue that such people would be tolerated only in UBF, but being tolerated is not the same as being loved. They're probably better off in intensive rehab, AA, or in a Bible-believing church that sees them as human beings instead of as
numbers.
Even those who have been "helped" using UBF methods often end up embittered. Jonathan Reese who was "made" to lose weight with the help of a baseball bat sued Samuel Lee. Someone else has written about Joe Schaeffer's sheep whom he made to lose weight using UBF methods. UBF claims to have helped such sheep so much and are shocked at their "ungratefulness." But they don't consider that UBF methods may be abusive, ungodly and definitely not Christ-like.

3/13/2001

Glad-2-B-Out 2d Gen.

Re: Doctrine

"I use to be in UBF I am now a physician and seen some problem with kids in america with their drug culture and addiction to food and gambling and lustful desires.
Let me tell you behavioral medicines and psychopharmacology will not help this people. Strong authoritarian church like UBF with strong peer pressures can help."

I couldn't resist when I read this. In trying to help people with their dependency problems, surely there must be better alternatives to drugs, authoritarianism and peer pressure. What about teaching people to think independently, to learn how to have a personal 1-to-1 relationship with GOD, to wisely exercise their freedom?

If you take people with dependency problems and treat them with authoritarianism and peer pressure, you're not really helping them. Instead, you're taking weak, vulnerable people and EXPLOITING them. You're merely taking one dependency problem and replacing it with another. And that, personally makes my blood boil.

2/28/2001

Glad-2-B-Out 2d Gen.

Re: Doctrine

I am not, by the way, wholly dismissing drugs as a valid treatment alternative.

2/28/2001

Anonymous

Re: Doctrine

Hey Doc, get off your Korean racist, neo-fascist high horse! These ends justify these means arguments simply will not work. The only one who really cures addiction and dependency is Christ. UBF substitutes another dependency, a human one to human authority that works for a little while, but in the end 99% leave and go back to square one anyway.

Let me tell you something, I belong a to an American Bible believing church that is fully democratic and open about its faults and weaknesses. The vast majority of its kids you will never see because they are stable, Godly, well disciplined and hard working. And it is all done without UBF brainwashing and mind control. It is accomplished through Christ's love.

You think UBF is so great. You don't know how many screwed up people have come out of it. The leaders themselves have enough addictions and problems and are unwilling to face their sinful realities!. Or perhaps you think compulsive lieing, theft, fornication, assaults, bribery...etc are OK? If you examine UBF's house closely you will see that they suffer from all the ills of all sinners anyway. The only solution is Christ, not SL and brainwashing.

So, keep your putrid elitist arguments to yourself because they make me want to puke in my kim chee!

2/27/2001

doc

Re: Doctrine

I must have touch your nerve. but
it only reveals your ignorance about God. Your belief is more of Scientology, and like Jehovah witness who refuse blood transfusion even though it can save their lives. Because of people like you people seeking treatment for depression anxiety and dependency will be considered as lack of faith in God. First all I have treated
God fearing bible christian of depression and anxiety and believe or not they respond well to medicaton. They didn't have to suffer needlessly. But then again you don't know that and have no Idea what people with dependency have to go through. You just ride your righteous high horse. I didn't say that God had nothing to do with treatment. And that that brainwashing UBF way is the only treatment. God works through UBF, 7th day adventist, Jehovah witness, Catholic and yes even you with your self righteousness.and if you can swallow this God also use Prozac and valium and Doctors like myself to help alleviate the suffering of his children. Are you still ready to cast your stone you without any sin.
But I still maintain my position UBF has a place in God's Kingdom and
Helps those who needs God's love.
Take some prozac I think you need it.
Doc

2/28/2001

Anonymous

Re: Doctrine-I can't believe I overlooked this gem..

Doc says, "God works through UBF, 7th day adventist, Jehovah witness, Catholic and yes even you with your self righteousness." There's the problem right there! This man is not even a Christian! He is a universalist! He believes there is nothing wrong with 7th day Adventists even though it is a cult of legalism; he believes JWs are fine even though they deny the deity of Christ!; And he thinks Catholicism with its re-sacrifice of Christ and intermediaries between people and God is OK too! So, that is why this man does not see any problem with UBF! He does not even understand Christ and the Bible!

Sir, please excuse me. But I believe you need to learn about Christ and the Bible. You need to accept Christ as your personal Savior. I am sorry, I thought we were arguing at least from the point of view of Christians. Please excuse me, had I known you were a relativist, a humanist and unbeliever I would not have challenged you so hard.

3/1/2001

david

Re: Doctrine-I can't believe I overlooked this gem..

Here's a gem! The thing is that I'm a Catholic. Do you believe that Catholics aren't "saved?" I suppose that I'm posting this because I'd like to stand up for the Catholic faith. I can't pretend that I find the Reformation and its rallying cry of "Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide" or its 500-year-old gospel compelling. The defender of "Sola Scriptura" is in the awkward position of appealing to an extra-biblical authority to establish the very principle of scripture as the sole authority in matters of faith and morals. I believe that the logical outworking of "Sola Scriptura" has been the proliferation of Protestant sects (some 57,000 plus). It appears that with the current commotion within UBF there is no danger that this happy tradition will become passe. "Sola Scriptura" is a clumsy proposition and Christendom has borne the fruit of its clumsiness. "I can only wonder how anyone," to paraphrase G.K. Chesterton, "should prefer the vinegar of Calvinism to the pure wine of Orthodoxy."

3/5/2001

Anonymous

Re: Doctrine-I can't believe I overlooked this gem..

Official Catholic doctrine is in direct opposition to Scripture. The Catholic doctrine is that the Mass is a re-sacrifice of Christ over and over again for sinners. The Bible tells us that Christ died once for all. Catholic doctrine is that a person must confess their sins to a priest to receive absolution but the Bible teaches we confess to Christ. The Catholic church teaches that we need "priests" as intercessors between God and man, but the Bible teaches us that there is one priest, Jesus and we come directly to him.

If you believe the official Catholic doctrine, then you are certainly not saved. If you believe that Christ died once for all and that you come directly to him, and that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice of Christ, then I believe you are probably saved, but wonder why you would devote yourself to an organization with such doctrines.

3/5/2001

What's up doc?

Re: Doctrine

"I must have touch your nerve. but
it only reveals your ignorance about God. Your belief is more of Scientology, and like Jehovah witness who refuse blood transfusion even though it can save their lives"
>Typical UBF tactic to make broad
erroneous generalizations about
>critical people.

"God fearing bible christian of depression and anxiety and believe or not they respond well to medicaton. They didn't have to suffer needlessly. "

> Strange, he doesn't mention SL telling everybody that Garry Cowan is only faking his brain cancer
>because he is lazy. He must think that is OK.

"I didn't say that God had nothing to do with treatment. And that that brainwashing UBF way is the only treatment. God works through UBF, 7th day adventist, Jehovah witness, Catholic and yes even you with your self righteousness"

>Gee, you are getting touchy. I only said that UBF strong arm mind control manipulation is not the solution to young people problems. All I said was Christ is the answer...what is so self-righteous about that? Oh, I forgot, you are SL fan so people who rely on Christ first are all considered self-righteous....but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. What was it that I said that was self-righteous...quote it so I can see!

"if you can swallow this God also use Prozac and valium and Doctors like myself to help alleviate the suffering of his children. Are you still ready to cast your stone you without any sin."

> Gee, what did I do to percipitate this outpouring of confession and guilt? You must feel really guilty about pushing all those pills? Do you take them too?

Again, I think you are responding to your own guilts and doubts not mine. Sure, I think the honorable shepherds who teach the Bible with a pure heart do God's work, but the leadership as TOTALLY disgraced itself both by its acts of bribary, assault, murder of unborn babies, (I wonder if you do abortions too? Maybe you feel guilty about that?) slander against servants of God, coverups of the first degree and so forth and so on...you ignore all those things, admit it..you do! You just see what you want to see.

As for me, I am not a scientologist...sorry 20 years in UBF is enough cult for a life time. I am in a Bible believing church where leaders with problems get the help they need and deserve instead of being ignored. And I take no drugs whatsoever.

So there, Doctor UBF lover and defender put that in your pipe and smoke it!

2/28/2001

doc

Re: Doctrine

Wow such a response and taking my letter and manipulating in such a way, is that what UBF did to you?
I don't see any love of God
in your writing. There is lack of compassion a lot of blaming full
of bitterness and defensiveness.

I am no longer in UBF. I am not
depending UBF although from your
writing you have made me as one.
You have some serious issues to deal with may be you need to see
a doctor. Not saying that to malign
you or put you down but bitterness and anger can make people sick.
I maintain my position though,
There is a place for UBF in God's
Kingdom like all other churches.
What is important is what is in your heart.

Doc

2/28/2001

Anonymous

What's up Doc?

Hey Doc, don't blame me for making you sound so foolish, you are doing it on your own shooting off your mouth about how good SL and UBF is for American young people when you yourself don't even belong to it! Typical quack doctor, flipantly diagnosing people and situations with no real knowledge or understanding and then prescribing "cures" that do more harm than the disease...cures that you yourself do not take!

But anyway, let's be adults, shall we? What would YOU do about UBF if YOU were in it? Do you think leaders like SL should be able to freely do the things he has done while running rough-shod over the members and leadership? What would YOU do if a leader has been accused of serious impropriety? HUH? Answer that! What if SL was one of your doctor colleagues? How long would he last in the AMA? But then again you "take care of your own" so he would probably fit in no matter how much mal-practice he has comitted.

Anyway, tell me what should be done with his wrong doing.

3/1/2001

doc

Re: What's up Doc?

It sounded that from reading your
email that you are still having
some difficulties with my stand.
I am sorry that you bear a lot of
suffering while in UBF for did you
say 20 years. Now if you were saying so many bad things about UBF
Why did you stay so long?

Doc

Anonymous

Re: What's up Doc?

Yes, your stand is that it is OK for UBF to have corrupt leaders. That is very wrong. You don't listen at all. I feel sorry for your patients. It is clear you do not even try to understand my posts. How did you ever become a doctor if you can't read?

Answer my question: What should UBF members do with allegations of serious corruption concerning their leaders?

Again, I am not critical of honest Bible teachers in UBF, but they have all left. The only ones that remain are those who blind their eyes to the truth. From my perspective they have lost all spiritual authority since they so willingly tolerate corruption in their leaders.

Address this Mr. Doctor. Don't ignore the issues. Don't sidestep these questions because they are central to the whole problem in UBF.

3/1/2001

doc

Re: What's up Doc?

I have read your post I read 1976, 1989 reform letter. I am not evading the issue. I am trained to be skeptical. When somebody tells me they feel bad I want to find out why? Now you have mention all this bad things about UBF yet you stayed so long? That doesn't make sense to me. A normal person would leave and evade what is causing him harm. But you didn't do that. You must be getting something good out of it. or you would not have stayed so long. Are you getting the picture now? You have attack me repeatedly any reader can see that. Did you acquire that from UBF or your american bible studies.
Can we have an intelligent dialogue
without personal attacks? I will be responding to your messages tomorrow. Could you say what anon you will be. ie. anon1 or angry UBF1 So I know I will be talking to the same person. By the way
God loves you... man.

Doc

Anonymous

Re: What's up Doc?

You see, you are not listening at all. READ WHAT I SAID AND DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I DID NOT SAY UBF WAS ENTIRELY NEGATIVE! SHOW ME WHERE I SAID SUCH THINGS? THE POSTS ARE ALL THERE FOR YOU TO LOOK AND SEE THAT I ONLY SAID THE LEADERSHIP WAS CORRUPT AND THAT I WAS FED UP WITH IT!

ANSWER THE QUESTION: What do you propose to do about corrupt leaders? And it is not just me, but about half of UBF that says there is a serious problem.

Obviously the things mentioned in the reform documents are not a concern for you. For me, I want to see the following:

1.) Samuel Lee should publically confess he sinned and was wrong to do what he did.

2.) He and the present leadership must resign.

3.) UBF must be reformed with Biblical leadership with elders, deacons, and church members being the highest authority, not ONE person.

4.) All the people who were beaten, forced to have abortions, divorces, unnecessary surgeries, or who had their houses boarded shut shut will be apologized.

5.) There should be a full accounting and investigation of how UBF money has been spent for the last decade.

That is what I believe needs to be done. These are things reformers want. Tell me, what is wrong with these things? Why is it bad to hold UBF leaders accountable? Why is it bad to question them?

Do you think they should get away with such things with no one saying anything? Oh well, you will probably not answer these questions. You probably love authoritarian leadership. Well, I do not. I am American and I believe in democracy. You probably can't understand that, but oh well. I will keep arguing with you as long as you want because I love speaking the truth and am not afraid to debate those who challenge me, especially when they are as easy to refute as you are.

By the way, I want to know your name, because I really don't want to have you be my doctor because you don't listen worth a darn. I would probably come in with a broken leg and you would end up giving me a heart by pass. It is obvious that you are fixed in your own opinions based on ignorance and do not want to listen to other people. Well, I will debate with you anyway. And as for attacking people, you started it by calling me a Scientologist and telling me I take prozac and stuff. So professional you are!

doc

Re: What's up Doc?

What did you get out of UBF to stay there for such a long time?

Doc

Anonymous

Re: What's up Doc?

Again, doc, do not confuse the issues. I never said UBF was entirely bad. Unlike you, I see a difference in God fearing people UBF and the corrupt leadership. I left to protest the corrupt leadership. When it puts its house in order I will return. Answer this question, what should you do with corrupt leaders? Answer that. You who seem to be such an expert on an organization that you do not belong to.

3/1/2001

Anonymous

Re: What's up Doc?

Gee, Doc who advocates peer pressure and shame based high pressure ministries is suddenly worried about compassion and the love and mercy of God? I thought shame, manipulation and pressure were good? That's what you indicated. Don't love and compassion and grace and mercy make people weak? What's the matter, Doc? Can't take your own medicine? Oh, poor little doctor got his wittle feewings huwrt? I am sorry.

What about the love of God and compassion SL shows to people? Shaking down widows for their insurance money? Telling people they are crazy? Nailing peoples' doors shut? Forcing people to have eyelid surgeries? (Perhaps this is where you benefited from UBF?) Having people beaten? Yeah, that's the kind of love and compassion you approve for American and Korean young people. Well if you think its good for them, then it must be good for you! So, if you want love and compassion while standing up for thugs and liars, forget it! You "brood of vipers"! How long will you flee from the coming wrath? You get what you deserve.

3/1/2001

Disciple DH, the cheerleader of trolls

Re: What's up Doc?

Doc, why feud with this person? There is no feuding with sarcasm. Twenty years of bible study, and you reply like this? Maturity in Christ is the doctor's prescription.

PJ

Re: What's up Doc?

Anonymous, there's also no use feuding with people who refuse to address the issues you rightly brought up. It's clear that you're arguing with someone who agrees with Samuel Lee's unspoken principal that the ends justify the means. Arguing with such people is ultimately fruitless. They need to find out the hard way that the ends do not justify the means before their eyes are opened.

3/1/2001

Anonymous

Re: What's up Doc?

Would a mature Christian say that the authoritarian and abusive structure of UBF leadership, even brainwashing and peer pressure is just what people need to help them? I am sorry, but that is patently false and it is also a terribly irresponsible and insensitive thing for any Christian to say, especially from one who is no longer in UBF. I think it is the height of folly. And as far as sarcasm being immature, you should check out your Bible. Was not Elijah sarcastic when he jeered the Baal worshippers? Was not Jesus sarcastic when he rebuked the Pharisees saying that they are like "white washed tombs" that look beautiful on the outside but are filled with dead men's bones on the inside? Did not Jesus say that the Pharisees "strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel"? Sarcasm has its place, especially in reflecting on UBF because its leadership does not respond to talking or discussion. Not only that, its leaders are extremely cynical. I cannot believe that Samuel Lee these days preaches about freedom of speech, democracy and the equality and approachability of God's servants all the while completely stonewalling and cutting off discussions with reformers. Such leadership is not worthy of anything but sarcasm. Perhaps it will challenge you and others to think about what is really going on. You are blinding your eyes and betraying your good and honest brothers and sisters. SL and the Pharisee leaders of UBF are not worthy of their positions because they have betrayed Christ, the Bible, and the people of God. They speak so many lies and the people eagerly listen so that they do not know what the truth is anymore even though it is very obvious that UBF is thoroughly corrupt.

I challenge you to repent your ignoring leaders' grievous sin and speak out against it. I challenge you to ask for justice for Reformers and all those wronged by SL. I challenge you to wake up and act before Christ and the Bible and not out of human loyalty and fear.

3/1/2001

Anonymous

Re: What's up Doc?

Another thing, I am actually very glad to talk to unreformed UBF people. Because when they discuss UBF and the Bible long enough they eventually come around to the truth. It is inevitable. There is no way to discuss these things without coming to a better understanding. So far, I have found that all those who discuss these questions eventually accept that there is a genuine problem. On the other hand, I have heard of absolutely no reformers or former UBF members changing and saying, "Oh, now I see the light! SL is God's servant and I should obey him unquestionably and absolutely no matter what he does!" It simply does not happen because the truth of God and God's word is on Reformers side. I am sorry all you unreformed UBF people, but you simply have no leg to stand on if you try to defend the spiritual tyranny of UBF. The only way you can keep from realizing the truth is to bury your head deeper in SL and his WM reports. But it appears not so many people relish those lies as much as they used to.

Yes, I will debate anyone for as long as they care to discuss these things because the truth is powerful and the more we discuss, even with sparks, the more the truth of Christ will be revealed.

3/1/2001

x-ubf member

Re: What's up Doc?

This is in response to anonymous. I understand very clearly all what you wrote, and your knowledge and observation is very good, I still think that Doc is a ubf member, this is why he is trying to justify SL ways. This Doc has no personal experience with the Holy Spirit, to think that it takes an organization like ubf (sl) to help students that have such problems, where is God in all this, where is his faith, where is the Holy Spirit. I was in ubf for 11 years, in chgo. I new the man who had cancer in the brain, I knew they called him lazy and other things, I heard he was mean to his wife, a Korean wife, and I thought that because of that they treated him the way they did, later on he mellowed down, but I guess the whole thing was brought on because he was really sick and nobody knew. Towards the end before I left I started to see how dark ubf was. Little Sarah SL adultress daugter could never give me eye contact and niether could SL. I later avoided them very much, I did not like them, but I could not put my finger on way. I had a wonderful Sheppardess and I love her very much, She left ubf not too long ago I still keep in touch with her. I thank God for opening my eyes, and I thank God so very much for opening her eyes also, indeed the Holy spirit was with us, and remains. I thank God for men like you, who is honestly surching the truth and will leave no rock unturned, may God give you wisdom and great insight. I like to write more, but I have to go. I support the reform, at least this way the truth will be out there for those who want to know it. It is in Gods hand how he will use this opportunity for his glory. Always remember that ultimatly God is in control. We must all keep on praying that God may give sight to other ubf members.

3/8/2001

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"Should the reformed UBF be a church" & "What's up, doc?" (2 of 2) -- rsqarchive, 23:43:53 10/03/02 Thu