Re: Baptism -- Qohelet Web Ministry

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Date Posted: 15:49:26 04/11/02 Thu
Author: Richard
Subject: Re: Baptism
In reply to: Jay Dee 's message, "Re: Baptism" on 14:03:11 04/10/02 Wed

Jay, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

I have some further observations to make on our discussion and then I am done with it.
You may or may not respond to it.

You had stated that there are two exceptions to the way God did things concerning salvation.
Fact is, there are at least four. Actually there are more than that but my whole point in asking the question about the thief was to try to understand--why you are not seeing some
things that are there.

Your generalization of the gospels is just that and thus not as accurate a presentation as it could be--time has a way of helping us with that though.

I have noticed that you tend to say this--

Once again, I would caution against a mechanistic view of God and salvation.

I have also noticed that you use this especially when your thinking is being challenged to accept new information.

Then you followed it this time with this--Bottom line is that God is the one who saves, and he does it on the basis of our faith. He has stiputated how he wants us to demonstrate that faith. A person who refuses to demonstrate it in that way obviously does not have faith.

[1] The thief on the cross--could not ever have the type and kind of faith that God requires of each of us as human beings today.

[a]That does not say that the thief lacked faith as you pointed out--it was his faith that Jesus saw--What I want you to see is that the faith of the thief was that of a Jew born and raised a Jew--who looked at Jesus and saw Jesus through Jewish eyes and Jewish scriptures.

[b]When you begin to look for exceptions try to give some thought to these two--the woman at the well and the Samaritan woman. In both of these cases, Jesus who is the Son of the Living God can do and did do these things along with raising the dead and many many other miracles.

Back to thief for a minute you said this about him..

However, the theif was not able to demonstrate his faith in anyway being hung on a cross. He could not "obey" any commands. But Jesus could tell the genuiness of his faith, so he saved him. He has the authority to forgive sins. What if the man did not receive John's baptism? What if he never obeyed a thing? Jesus saw his faith, and forgave him. It mattered not what was done before. He has all rule, authority and power.

My response--I would suggest that you stop and think about it--That the thief did indeed very much so express his faith-the thief did exactly that and he did it with words. Prior to being put on the cross, Jesus has demostated his willingness to forgive sins without baptism and He did.

Men today call that a deathbed confession-- and Jay they use this to show that you do not have to be baptized in order to be saved. The only answer that works is to show them what I showed you--the thief died a fully fifty days before the giving of the new covenant.

Because of the thief--I also made this statement
[a] That said law was given on to the Jews and never ever to the Gentiles? That is most of us today

I could comment on this, but maybe I am dense. Did I bring this up and is it relevant to this discussion??

Now--is it revelant? Yes, it is because that is exactly what the thief is--a Jew who lived and died under the old Covenant law. By the way as an aside--are you aware that neither of us were ever under the law that Jesus lived under?

Now, that is the end of the thief. I want to leave you with a scripture because

2Tim 3:16 (KJS) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly...: or, perfected}

Jay-I am not unhappy with your remarks--I just believe that you are not thinking about some of the consequences of such thinking. Give it some time.

You suggested a new topic--why don't you begin it--and in brief here is my understanding of the differences.

Under the old Covenant the Jews had an view--a understanding of the baptism of the holy Spirit that is vastly different than that given in Acts 2 upon the apostles. Give that some thought I have to take one of my girls to work.

Oh try understanding how the Jews view this text of the baptism of the holy Spirit
Interesting study. Good luck and God bless you in your continued ministry.
Matt 3:10 (KJS) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: 12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Richard

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Replies:

Re: Baptism -- Jay Dee, 00:45:33 04/12/02 Fri