Re: Baptism -- Qohelet Web Ministry

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Date Posted: 00:45:33 04/12/02 Fri
Author: Jay Dee
Subject: Re: Baptism
In reply to: Richard 's message, "Re: Baptism" on 15:49:26 04/11/02 Thu

You know Richard, I think we agree on just about everything except for a couple of hair splitting issues. First of all...

Me: Once again, I would caution against a mechanistic view of God and salvation.

You: I have also noticed that you use this especially when your thinking is being challenged to accept new information.

Actually, this is "old" information for me. I have come to this conclusion after years of study and growing. I have come to recognize that some people (and I am not limiting this to people in churches of Christ) have a mechanistic view of God. I know, because I used to. Part of this is natural, I'm sure. Some of it may be inevitable with new Christians simply because new Christians are more do and don't oriented than are more mature Christians who move to a more closer and intimate relationship with God over the years. I don't know how many times I have heard the "5 steps" given as the Gospel. It is NOT the Gospel. It is our response to the Gospel. Jesus death for our sins, burial and resurrection is the Gospel. Our forgiveness and hope are through his death and resurrection. God is the one who saves.

What I mean by a mechanistic view of salvation and God is the attitude that if I press the right buttons in the right order, I am saved by that. That is the wrong emphasis. Read Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 7 for starters. Those sermons are good examples of what I mean be a mechanistic view of God. He is not a "salvation machine" any more than a "justice machine." That is what the whole discussion about God was all about in Job. God is not a black and white God, he is not a justice machine, and he can do what he wants whether we think he is justified or not. After a good study in Job and in Ecclesiastes, which have to do with the flip side of wisdom, I began to know God in a different way. He is sovereign, which means that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. So on questions such as the theif, or Cornelius, I am not so quick to try and rationalize the mechanistic "formula" realizing that God could choose to save Cornelius by slightly altering the "formula." He has the authority and right to do that. ONce you get a handle on that, it is not so hard to admit.

Now--is it revelant? Yes, it is because that is exactly what the thief is--a Jew who lived and died under the old Covenant law. By the way as an aside--are you aware that neither of us were ever under the law that Jesus lived under?

This is true. The theif could not be a "Christian" in the way that others following the resurrection were. They had put their faith in a crucified and risen Lord. However, this man could only put his faith in Jesus before the events had ever happened. He fully believed Jesus was the Messiah.

However, the "demonstration of faith" in the Old Testament was normally a sin offering. This man was not able to come down of the cross and do this. The basis of his faith was in Jesus, and Jesus saved him. He did not have his sins forgiven as a typical Jew. This is why I said that the Gospels represent a "period" of transition. Jesus did not tell people to offer up a sacrifice for sin, which is what the law prescribed. He forgave people their sins by pronouncement. If you think that is foggy or unclear, you are probably right. That is just the nature of that period of salvation history.

Jay-I am not unhappy with your remarks--I just believe that you are not thinking about some of the consequences of such thinking. Give it some time.

Believe me, I have thought and studied on this long and hard. I avoided certain interpretations or reasonings because of the consequences. However, I am not worried about that anymore. I do not every want to be guilty of intellectual dishonesty or worrying about someone trying to "get one over on God" like I used to be. God knows the heart, and if someone is goign to try and skirt around what God clearly wants him to do, God will deal with him. A person that is going to try and skirt around God is not going to be a true convert anyway.

This really shouldn't be that big of an issue anyway. I have never ran across anyone who wanted to be saved like the theif on the cross. I have never witnessed anything such as Cornelius in Acts 10. THe Bible is clear what the object of Christian faith is, and how it is to be demonstrated.

Are death bed conversions valid? Not my place to say. However, if a person is alive and well, and refuses, I would have to ask if that person honestly loves God? Does he honestly believe? Even the demons believe and shudder. Today is the day of salvation, don't wait till the death bed. Besides, that is like playing Russian roulette. What makes you think that would be an honest conversion? That is another topic though.

If God makes exceptions, that is his business. However, I do not preach that he may or may not in the case of the people I share the Gospel with. He is the manager of the store, I am just the clerk. I cannot speak for him beyond the price that is on the price tag. My job is simply to teach the Gospel.

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