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Date Posted: 17:07:26 06/04/02 Tue
Author: Jay Dee
Subject: Re: The Holy Spirit
In reply to: Doug 's message, "Re: The Holy Spirit" on 16:11:52 06/03/02 Mon

Doug wrote: "Hi Jay Dee, Still enjoying our discussion. However, I must say the same thing right back to you; how you can conclude that John 7:38-39 is not dealing with the miraculous, but some alleged non-miraculous personal indwelling, and that this has reference to any and all who believe today, is beyond me!:-) That is simply the old pat answer every literal, personal indweller gives."

Doug, I think you have me mixed up with David. However, both he and you raise a good question. How do you know who Jesus meant the promise for? Is it something for only the twelve, or something more inclusive?

Let me back up, and point out once again from Acts 2:38-40 that the promise is not for JUST the twelve, Peter was explicit about that.

Moreover, in verse 38, "He that believeth on me" is an "articular participle" and functions as an adjective (Robertson 1105-1108). Also, "from within him shall flow rivers of living water" simply refers to the apostles and those whom the apostles laid their hands on. This entails inspiration by the Holy Spirit.

The fact that it is a participle has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. If you were to translate it as a participle "The one believing in me" that doesn't offer any support for it being limited to the apostles and the ones they lay their hands on. It simply is referring to believers, and nothing in the context says that it refers only to the twelve believers. I am trying to remember, did you initially state that this was referring to just the apostles? Are we now including more than just the apostles as well?

If John 7:38-39 is to be taken literally, then John 20:22 must be taken figuratively. If not, why not? A literal interpretation, therefore, must of necessity, imply that there was no literal giving or receiving of the Holy Spirit prior to the glorification of Christ. This would also imply, from your very argument, that the apostles, who worked miracles prior to Acts 2, did not have the Spirit literally in their bodies. Right? This further implies that it was not necessary to literally have the Holy Spirit in one's body in order to work miracles prior to Acts 2. Therefore, if it was not necessary to have a literal indwelling to work miracles prior to Acts 2, why would it be necessary after Acts 2?

These are very good questions Doug. Maybe we ought to start another post on this one. How do you square John 20:22 with Acts 1:5?

I have been thinking about the other questions, and it has occured to me that miracles before the glorification of Christ happened way before Christ, especially with Elijah and Elisha. Yet this is before the Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Explanation? Maybe it is because the miraculous abilities given by the Spirit and the gift of the Spirit (for all flesh) are not the same. Just because someone received an outpouring of the Spirit and possessed him as a "gift" did not mean that they had miraculous abilities. If the Spirit so chose to give them an ability, he could have done so. However, a person who was not full of the Spirit could also have abilities by the Spirit. The Old Testament people with miraculous abilities all attest to this. So, your rhetorical questions (I assume that is what they are) are correct in one sense. One did not have to posssess the Spirit for the miraculous ability because no one possessed the Spirit before Christ. But that was Old Testament. In the new testament, miraculous gifts came from the Spirit, and were apparently a manifestation of believing faith. It was a sign for unbelievers, according to 1 Cor 14. I guess the major difference is that those in the Old Testament were believers, and those in the new testament wouild have also been believers.

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