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Date Posted: 16:11:52 06/03/02 Mon
Author: Doug
Subject: Re: The Holy Spirit
In reply to: David 's message, "Re: The Holy Spirit" on 23:15:49 06/02/02 Sun

Hi Jay Dee,

Still enjoying our discussion. However, I must say the same thing right back to you; how you can conclude that John 7:38-39 is not dealing with the miraculous, but some alleged non-miraculous personal indwelling, and that this has reference to any and all who believe today, is beyond me!:-) That is simply the old pat answer every literal, personal indweller gives.

As I said previously, I see this passage as being identical to Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 5:32. I'll summarize it: The coming of the Spirit and the glorification of Christ is a definite reference to the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit beginning on Pentecost. The "believer" of John 7:38-39 is the baptized believer of Mark 16:16, however, the reception of the Spirit by the "believers" is the miraculous endowments of believers that came through the laying on of the apostles hands and is linked to Joel 2 and the remainder of Mark's Great Commission account found in Mark 16:17-20. The reception of the Spirit in John 7:38-39 means the same thing as Mark 16:17-20. If not, why not?

The "Let anyone who is thirsty" phrase is defined for us in verse 39...the "believing ones," then and there, that would LATER receive the promised Spirit (metonymy - the cause for the effect) that at the moment was not yet given!

Moreover, in verse 38, "He that believeth on me" is an "articular participle" and functions as an adjective (Robertson 1105-1108). Also, "from within him shall flow rivers of living water" simply refers to the apostles and those whom the apostles laid their hands on. This entails inspiration by the Holy Spirit.

Then, in defining those mentioned in verse 38, verse 39 states, "they that believed," which is an "articular participle, meaning "the now believing ones"..."on Him were to receive..." Further, the Spirit "was not yet given as this would happen on Pentecost in Acts 2 - "because Jesus was not yet glorified."

If John 7:38-39 is to be taken literally, then John 20:22 must be taken figuratively. If not, why not? A literal interpretation, therefore, must of necessity, imply that there was no literal giving or receiving of the Holy Spirit prior to the glorification of Christ. This would also imply, from your very argument, that the apostles, who worked miracles prior to Acts 2, did not have the Spirit literally in their bodies. Right? This further implies that it was not necessary to literally have the Holy Spirit in one's body in order to work miracles prior to Acts 2. Therefore, if it was not necessary to have a literal indwelling to work miracles prior to Acts 2, why would it be necessary after Acts 2?

You said that you believe that I'm holding to this interpretation simply to disprove miraculous gifts today. Absolutely not! Although I believe that there are no miraculous works today, I hold to this view because it is TRUE and right and for no other reason! And I might add, that in no way am I "explaining away" this or any other passage. You may not like my view but I believe it is in accordance with what Scripture teaches. So, no, this passage is not all inclusive, as you promote, rather it is exclusive and does not pertain to anyone living today.

Brotherly,
Doug

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